Skill Challenges: New or Old - which is better?

[Drammattex]

I'm fine with the errata'd version. I generally want the PCs to succeed so that the adventure can move forward; it's part of saying "yes." When they fail at a challenge, I have to think up a dynamic way for their failure to keep the adventure moving, albeit in a different direction. It's easier on me if they succeed.

I like the skill challenge system so far because it's abstract. In fact, a lot of 4e is abstract, which makes it easy for me to put my own flavor in.

My main job is storyteller. The way we use the current skill challenge system is something of an improvisation. If it's not a skill challenge that I've come up with beforehand, I listen to what the players want to do and then decide on a complexity, usually determined by how far I think the PCs are trying to bend reality or get away with something unlikely. Since the system is still new, I briefly interrupt the story to tell them that we're doing a skill challenge and that this is the time for them to use their skills in creative ways they can justify. I let them try whatever they want to try, telling them what their chances look like (according to their character's point of view, of course) if I need to.

Within the skill challenge, there's a lot of improv. As they succeed and fail, we tack in different directions with the story. Even at the low DCs, I find they're not succeeding at all the skill challenges. A few weeks ago, the gypsy/longshoreman PC blew up the skill challenge by telling tanners they were in negotiation with to "eff themselves" when they made a comment about his race, then he walked away. Not so good for diplomacy. However, that development began to establish his character as a guy who doesn't heed threats or bs. So out of a failed skill challenge, we developed some awesome character stuff that was far more rewarding than a success.

Anyway, this is all to say that I prefer a simple, somewhat abstract system. If I don't want the PCs to succeed, I just raise the complexity and the DCs. Even so, I get excited when they succeed at those too.

 

[pukunui]

Great comments, Drammattex. You've got a similar approach to how LostSoul does it (he's been helping me figure out the skill challenges I've got planned for tonight's session in a different thread).

 

[Drammattex]

Thanks, pukunui. I don't think I quite understood them the way they were written in the DMG, but having browsed through some of the latest issues of Dungeon, I've seen some interesting ways to use them. For instance, I've noticed that there was one adventure where the number of skill challenge successes determined the difficulty and/or results of events later on in the adventure. This opened my mind to ways I could design cool game and story elements around skill challenges.

That said, I kind of like improvising them. Lately, skill challenges have started as skill checks, like when the PCs wanted to make a deal with the tanners and when they were searching out clues to a murder. Once I realized they were going to be making more than one check, I decided that they were in a skill challenge. I asked myself:
How tough is this? (complexity)
How high are the numbers going to be? (DCs)
And that was when I told the players they could use any skill they could justify in order to learn more about, or further, their deal/investigation. So far, it's worked very well. It's been fun and easy to run on the fly, which is perhaps the most important part of it to me.

 

[beeflv30]

It's in the DMG errata. The DM Screen errata was for the "page 42" improv table errata,which is related. The main things are that you don't roll initiative anymore and you get "three strikes and you're out" no matter the complexity. I think this last is because they've lowered DCs across the board, so it should be easier to get more successes (and harder to get failures).

Thanks. This new version seems a little more to my taste. Since I have used challenges quite often and have found the dcs rather high.

 

[pukunui]

Thanks, pukunui. I don't think I quite understood them the way they were written in the DMG, but having browsed through some of the latest issues of Dungeon, I've seen some interesting ways to use them. For instance, I've noticed that there was one adventure where the number of skill challenge successes determined the difficulty and/or results of events later on in the adventure. This opened my mind to ways I could design cool game and story elements around skill challenges.

Yes, I was just searching through some of the latest Dungeon adventures for skill challenges the other day. The Sea Reavers one has a few high-level ones, and while the DCs seem to have been determined at random, they've got some interesting ideas ... like having a high Diplomacy check negate one failure.

The Tariff of Relkingham one is the one you're thinking of where they've got a sidebar talking about how the adventure should change depending on how the PCs go with the skill challenges.

The main thing I don't like about WotC's default challenges, though, is the way they're presented as just being, "Here are the skills you can use, and this is what you can do with them, roll some dice. Oh, and if you think of something else, go for it too." Having those skills and skill uses there is useful for ideas, but I wouldn't want to limit myself just to them.

That said, I kind of like improvising them. Lately, skill challenges have started as skill checks, like when the PCs wanted to make a deal with the tanners and when they were searching out clues to a murder. Once I realized they were going to be making more than one check, I decided that they were in a skill challenge. I asked myself:
How tough is this? (complexity)
How high are the numbers going to be? (DCs)
And that was when I told the players they could use any skill they could justify in order to learn more about, or further, their deal/investigation. So far, it's worked very well. It's been fun and easy to run on the fly, which is perhaps the most important part of it to me.

I'm thinking I'll have to rely on improvising and just trying to figure out complexity/XP afterwards, as I'm really struggling trying to figure it out ahead of time. I know what I want to do with the skill challenges I've made up but I don't know how hard/easy they should be, so I think I'll just run with it and see what happens. In fact, I might just skip the whole complexity thing all together and just let the challenges take as many or as few rolls as they need to resolve and just eyeball the XP afterwards.

Thanks. This new version seems a little more to my taste. Since I have used challenges quite often and have found the dcs rather high.

Glad I could help!

 

[Pseudopsyche]

I'm thinking I'll have to rely on improvising and just trying to figure out complexity/XP afterwards, as I'm really struggling trying to figure it out ahead of time. I know what I want to do with the skill challenges I've made up but I don't know how hard/easy they should be, so I think I'll just run with it and see what happens. In fact, I might just skip the whole complexity thing all together and just let the challenges take as many or as few rolls as they need to resolve and just eyeball the XP afterwards.

I also find myself improvising the complexity level of my skill challenges. I try to describe how each skill check affects the current situation, and sometimes the evolution of the encounter simply brings it to an end, depending on the last action taken. It's worked well enough for me just to award XP for the highest complexity level attained, by the number of successes that came up during the encounter.

 

[pukunui]

I also find myself improvising the complexity level of my skill challenges. I try to describe how each skill check affects the current situation, and sometimes the evolution of the encounter simply brings it to an end, depending on the last action taken. It's worked well enough for me just to award XP for the highest complexity level attained, by the number of successes that came up during the encounter.

This is more or less what I did last night. I ran two skill challenges back to back to mixed reviews. I think most of my group still doesn't really get the idea of skill challenges though. Next time, I might run one more like how WotC does them just to give the players a better idea of what they can do.