D&D 5E Skills Redux

[CapnZapp]

But the PHB allows for the creation of any background that can be imagined. If your players are as creative and system-manipulative as you suggest, won't they just come up with a new background that still gives them what they want?

Again, I think Rule Zero "grown-up talk", where needs are expressed and everyone agrees to play in good faith, is such a hugely beneficial first step. It cuts out a lot of this end-around extra work, IMX.

Sorry, but you're leaping to conclusions here.

Picking an existing background with an eye towards your class skills is one thing; completely abusing the offer to come up with your own background is another.

There is no need to assume the latter just because of the former, so let's not go where you just went - that is, accusing my players of having to grow up.

There is no "extra work", as in, I am not Reduxing to try to close off every avenue of abuse.

But saying "since we can't close off every abuse, we should not even try to improve the rules as written" is not a logical argument.

Just because there are still ways to abuse freedoms does not mean
1) that they will be
or
2) that it lacks value to plug up obvious holes in the rules.

The rules have definite deficiences. But the ability to create new backgrounds is not one of them.

What I want is a ruleset where printed options can be used without DM approval. Creating entirely new features (backgrounds, feats, classes etc) comes with automatic DM supervision so those aren't a problem. Things you're supposed to be able to just take and use (like GWM) is.

So I want to fix the latter category without having to discuss the former. Thanks.

 

[CapnZapp]

He's not said it outright, but it looks like his table already plays without the option to build a background from a scratch. I don't know if it was an intentional choice or if they didn't notice the rule (it's kind of tucked off in a corner that's easily skimmed over) , but they are playing with the houserule I suggested he hardcode into his redux rules: "Pick a background from this list, or create one with DM approval."

I can't imagine anyone playing where players are given the right to create a background that they get to use with no DM input.

So you're right, I'm obviously restricting free background skill swaps in a Redux with the explicit intent to restrict skills. I did not think I had to mention that

 

[CapnZapp]

So your problem is that the people can take the skills they want, and it's fun to do so? Oh, and tool proficiencies are a mess...because they are a mess.

Well alrighty then.

If you have a point you can express without the snark, I will respond.

 

[CapnZapp]

But even "with DM approval" it shouldn't be too hard to come up with something that gives you the skills you are looking to add to your character. Because again, it seems like, to me at least, his players tend to "feature fish". IMX, its easy to come up with a narrative to explain whatever it is you are looking for. Rather than the other way around, where you are looking for something that matches a narrative.

What's your point, Corwin?

D&D is obviously a game where you "feature fish" if you have even the slightest inclination to create a effective character, so...?

 

[CapnZapp]

Hmmm, you might be right.

Zapp, drop the "or create one with DM approval" bit.

Sorry, drop what?

 

[CapnZapp]

I think the big thing about people choosing the skill proficiencies that they do is because those are the ones that are actually relevant. Might I suggest that the real problem here is that many adventures heavily weight some skills over others?

Yes, and so I invite you to share your thoughts on my Reduxed skill set.

That is, what do you think about the differences between my 21 skills and the PHB eighteen? Do you feel I have succeeded in removing seldomly used skills, or rather, to consolidate them?

I'm particularly thinking about 1) how trapfinding is now moved from Perception* to Dungeoneering.
*) if you use Investigation, kudos to you, but let's assume we don't need to restart that particular subdiscussion...

2) how animal handling and theoretical nature questions are bundled into Survival?

3) how monster knowledge (a rather crucial ability my players value highly) is given to certain skills (and that Perception isn't one of these)?

Anything else?

 

[CapnZapp]

Isn't being able to take the skills they want a good thing for characters?

Assuming this is a genuine question, the answer is "yes, but not at the expense of nobody valuing skill monkeys".

I feel part of the cost of picking Fighter should be sub-optimal skills (i.e. no Perception). That simply never happens if you can pick whatever skill you want, which is what the background skill replacement rule led to in practical play.

Also please see previous discussion in the thread. If you have follow-up questions, please quote previous discussion, so I don't feel I have to start from scratch.

Thanks.

 

[Aldarc]

It sound like you have a clear picture of when to use Investigation.

But why isn't the skill then called Find Traps?

To me, everything worked just fine in all the other games I've run and none of them have this strange undefined skill...

Probably because it's also more than simply Find Traps, much like how Athletics is about being an athlete. You don't "perceive traps," you "search for traps." Though the searching may require some "perceiving," you are also making intellectual deductions based upon your understanding of how trapped rooms, items, and other objects may operate.

Investigation is as much of a "strange undefined skill" as most other skills in 5E. I usually run Investigation as a hodgepodge of Search, Research, and Deduction (based on clues). Investigation applies to more than simply traps, but it would likely find a lot of use towards traps in a classic dungeon crawl.

 

[CapnZapp]

Interesting. Do you also feel the same way about healing, and parties no longer requiring someone to play a cleric specifically?

De-emphazising in-combat healing and removing the need for a dedicated healer are two great things about 5E.

I use Charisma(Investigation) for that in general.

Apparently you make Investigation work. I hate the skill and have removed it.

Aren't there equivalent knowledge skills in 5e though?

I prefer not having a bunch of otherwise unused theory skills (not Religion perhaps, but Nature for example).

I like the 4E idea of how "action heroes" also know their stuff.

After all, this is stuff the DM is generally itching to tell the players anyway!

Truly esoteric knowledge will still have to be covered by research or Wizard's Arcana check, so it's not like I'm signing away my perogative to withhold crucial info.

I find the "animal rule" a good distinction for whether to use Perception or Investigation.

Don't know what that means, but I really don't care - I've left Investigation behind.

OK. So you still use Athletics for grappling/shoving/knocking prone, but you allow Might to be used to resist them? And also Might to be used to break out of grapples.

First off, this is an off-the-cuff idea that came to me when I wrote that reply, so nothing's "official" yet.

I would say Might can be used whenever you can replace Athletics with Acrobatics (common sense applied of course). I believe that means "yes" to your questions.

Have you houseruled out the ability to simply swap around what skills any particular background grants?

You're the second one to ask, so I guess I need to officially say "yes" to that.

Thank you for your interest in my Redux!

 

[CapnZapp]

"- investigation is utterly unused
and
Also, finding out more by talking to people and visiting bars is a common action. There needs to be a skill for that."

Talking to people and visiting bars, to gather information, sounds like a CHA + investigation check to me.

"Talking to people and visiting bars" is to me a completely different skill set than "trapfinding" or "puzzle solving" or "loot searching" or "library research".

I guess that's why I don't grok mushing these activities together in a single skill. Thank you for helping me better understand why I can't stand the skill!