[Skills] Solutions to the oblivious rogue problem

[Hypersmurf]

For example, they say a DC 10 action is "trivial". So trivial that one shouldn't even have to roll. And yet a typical person (ability score 10) would only succeed on such an action 50% of the time!

I think it needs to be read in conjunction with the advice to DMs that an easy, stress-free action requires no roll for success.

If he has to roll for some reason, the typical person might fail the 'trivial' DC 50% of the time... but the DM is advised not to require a roll for those actions in most cases.

-Hyp.

 

[Stalker0]

to me, the rogue had a wisdom of 9, so of course he's not going to be perceptive.

That's not a flaw in the system, just a flaw in the character gen. People assumed they were playing a scouting rogue because of the perception bonus, but that didn't jive with the wisdom.

If you want a rogue with good eyes, get a good wisdom, seems simple enough.

 

[Sadrik]

Is Perception the oddball skill that shouldn't be based on an ability score?

Perhaps wisdom and perception could be divorced.

Perhaps one approach is removing the skill altogether.

I had a very similar thought about this too. Although my solution was quite different. I thought perception could be spit three ways. Physical, spiritual, and social, sounds complex but it is really not.

Int forms your perception for figuring stuff out (traps and such), wisdom forms your perception for mystical stuff (sixth sense), and charisma, is your determining if someone is lying to you. Basically split them and you don't have an issue. Makes more sense this way too, wisdom is now the more mystical attunement stat (cleric), intelligence the figure stuff out stat (rogue, wizard), and charisma the social stat. Go figure.

Sometimes the simplest solutions are right in your face.

 

[Ahnehnois]

We've discussed here before the problem of the low wisdom Rogue. He has expert knowledge in finding traps, but that darned Cleric of Pelor shows up and just knows where they all are, better than him!

In the most recent L&L this is mentioned, along with a solution that the team is testing: A skill is used in place of an ability modifier, instead of in addition to. For example, instead of the trapfinding skill being +3 to find traps (typically a Wisdom check because it involves perception), it would be +5 flat, instead of your usual perception check (number modified so that this system makes sense).

This way, the untrained Cleric has +3/+4 and is still perceptive, but the Rogue has +5 because he knows what he's looking for. This sounds like it might work for this problem, but I forsee some problems:

• Firstly, it moves directly away from the original concept that abilities aren't raw physical quantities, but are also representative of your general skill and ability in certain areas.
• If two characters are trained in tightrope-walking, they are equally good, despite their dexterities potentially being rather different - which would still affect their AC and missile attacks.
• In fact, it separates skills from 'combat skills', so should proficiency with a weapon be a flat bonus and completely ignore your Str/Dex?
• Why would you want a skill which you were already pretty darned good at due to your ability modifier?

I don't think this system will function well in practice. Is there another modification to the skill system that would solve this problem, or is it really just down to changing how we adjudicate perception?

I will reiterate my previous solution - wisdom is for passive perception, intelligence is for active perception. You look for traps (Int), but you walk past secret doors obliviously (Wis).

Why does this need to be "fixed"? Shouldn't wise people be better at spotting danger?

I think the real issue is the class design. Clerics are classically encouraged to have high wisdom despite the fact that this doesn't fit the image of a cleric at all; the typical one is a vessel of divine power, perhaps evangelical or perhaps a zealot but certainly not a particularly insightful person. Charisma, especially since the definition of force of personality is being pushed, makes more sense as the cleric's prime requisite; while a cloistered cleric (i.e. a religious scholarly type) should be Int-based.

Conversely, the rogue is characteristically canny and survives on wits, but is not given much mechanical incentive to put points into Wis. Instead, he supposed to max Int, despite the fact that many rogues are streetfighters, scoundrels, and other non-genius characters. Shouldn't we have a system where the rogue is generally encouraged to have a higher Wis than the cleric?

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I think the real issue is the class design. Clerics are classically encouraged to have high wisdom despite the fact that this doesn't fit the image of a cleric at all; the typical one is a vessel of divine power, perhaps evangelical or perhaps a zealot but certainly not a particularly insightful person. Charisma, especially since the definition of force of personality is being pushed, makes more sense as the cleric's prime requisite; while a cloistered cleric (i.e. a religious scholarly type) should be Int-based.

Conversely, the rogue is characteristically canny and survives on wits, but is not given much mechanical incentive to put points into Wis. Instead, he supposed to max Int, despite the fact that many rogues are streetfighters, scoundrels, and other non-genius characters. Shouldn't we have a system where the rogue is generally encouraged to have a higher Wis than the cleric?

It's either that the classes are badly designed, or the description of abilities is badly designed.

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition.

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.

While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.

Lifted from the SRD. I checked back to AD&D non-weapon proficiencies, and that's where Alertness = Wisdom seems to come from. If we maintain this distinction, then I suppose that Clerics will naturally be more aware of their surroundings, and Rogues ought to invest more into Wisdom. I still maintain, though, that Intelligence is relevant to the Rogue, as disarming traps requires reasoning, in my mind. I don't know, maybe I'm too used to other games that use Int as the perception stat (and there is no wisdom).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Trapfinding Expertise: The Rogue uses the higher of Dexterity, Intelligence or Wisdom for all checks to find or disable traps.

I don't like approaches where skill bonuses replace ability bonuses, as that makes natural aptitude irrelevant. (And I don't want more complicated rules for skill acquisition so that it's easier for people with an aptitude to gain a skill). Shadowrun did something like that until the 4E, and I never liked it.

I am kinda more worried about the Thief Tool's thing. Now only Rogues can open locks with tools. That's too absolute and makes the Rogue almost a required class for dungeoneering. Better IMO would be that you can try to improsive opening locks, but Rogues (and only them, barring special training feats/themes/whatsoever) can use Thief Tools and gain a bonus with them consequently.

 

[Ahnehnois]

It's either that the classes are badly designed, or the description of abilities is badly designed.
...
Lifted from the SRD. I checked back to AD&D non-weapon proficiencies, and that's where Alertness = Wisdom seems to come from. If we maintain this distinction, then I suppose that Clerics will naturally be more aware of their surroundings, and Rogues ought to invest more into Wisdom. I still maintain, though, that Intelligence is relevant to the Rogue, as disarming traps requires reasoning, in my mind. I don't know, maybe I'm too used to other games that use Int as the perception stat (and there is no wisdom).

This is fair to say; I'm going by my interpretation of what I read in the ability score definitions but they've never really cleared up the confusion on what each one represents.

I still think that by almost any sensible definition of Wisdom, the iconic fantasy priest/cleric is on the low end of the spectrum, and the rogue on the high end; my opinion is that the cleric should not be Wis-based.

Intelligence is also relevant to many rogues, particularly those with mechanical expertise, I agree.

 

[mlund]

I still think that by almost any sensible definition of Wisdom, the iconic fantasy priest/cleric is on the low end of the spectrum, and the rogue on the high end; my opinion is that the cleric should not be Wis-based.

The D&D Cleric was founded in the idea of Templars and Crusaders from its historical war-gaming roots. The cleric got divine magical powers because of swords-and-sorcery fantasy aspect. The fact that many fantasy novels play clergy in a farcical or sinister manner will never merit modifying the PC Cleric to conform with negative stereotypes. D&D Clerics were cut from the cloth of men who routinely saw the best and the worst humanity has to offer.

The actual job of a priest or chaplain is heavily rooted in the Wisdom ability score. Without such an ability it is almost impossible to minister to mortals. Likewise it is extremely difficult to serve as a bridge to the immaterial world of ineffable divinity without a kind of attunement best associated with Wisdom. Wisdom is the primary attribute seat of spirituality.

Now there are skills a good spokesman for a respectable deity should have that are associated with other ability scores. An excellent Preacher needs his Charisma score. A talented Theologian relies on his Intelligence. But at his core the Adventuring Cleric relies on his ability to relate to his divine power.

- Marty Lund

 

[Ahnehnois]

The actual job of a priest or chaplain is heavily rooted in the Wisdom ability score. Without such an ability it is almost impossible to minister to mortals. Likewise it is extremely difficult to serve as a bridge to the immaterial world of ineffable divinity without a kind of attunement best associated with Wisdom.

This is where it gets kind of difficult to discuss while staying within ENW's no religion/no politics rule.

Wisdom is the primary attribute seat of spirituality.

I agree with that statement. That's why I expect monks and psionic types to use Wis to drive their powers. When I see a D&D cleric, I don't think of that character as being particularly spiritual; in fact I think of it as typifying the distinction between spirituality and religion.

The cleric recruits worshippers for his deity or kills his deity's enemies or heals the sick in his name, and so on. The cleric is not a spiritual leader, he is an instrument of a higher being.

The rogue, on the other hand, is quite spiritual. He's probably the one who carries a lucky charm and has supersitions and has faith; he needs those things to carry out his next dangerous mission without magical aid.

That's my perspective; what the books say in fluff seems to vary widely so I'll leave it there.

 

[mlund]

I agree with that statement. That's why I expect monks and psionic types to use Wis to drive their powers. When I see a D&D cleric, I don't think of that character as being particularly spiritual; in fact I think of it as typifying the distinction between spirituality and religion.

The Cleric mechanically doesn't have to be part of any organized religion, just spiritual enough to attune to divine power - which may or may not be a personified divinity (depends on the setting and the cleric).

Religion is, at least in D&D terms, a social organization formed around a shared spiritual tradition. A church could be a hollowed out political structure with no actual spiritual component but then it wouldn't have Clerics (the character class, not generic clergy).

Divine magic comes from an external source in D&D - be it a god in the astral sea, a lord of the Nine Hells, a philosophical conception in the universe, or the primal animus of the planet itself.

The cleric recruits worshippers for his deity or kills his deity's enemies or heals the sick in his name, and so on. The cleric is not a spiritual leader, he is an instrument of a higher being.

Being a leader (spiritual or otherwise) is an expression of Charisma.
Being attuned to an ineffable higher power to the point where you can shoot lasers from your eyes and pull souls back from beyond the veil of death is an expression of Wisdom.

The Paladin is the blunt instrument of the gods, as it were. His primary role is to carry the blessings of a divine source into battle to protect the "good" and vanquish the "evil." In an organized religion he's typically a lay-person with less religious qualification and authority than a cleric. In a disorganized spirituality he's the one that lives in the moment of the act and doesn't have much time for naval-gazing and meditating on divine mysteries.

The Cleric is a more versatile tool, but they can certainly overlap.

The rogue, on the other hand, is quite spiritual. He's probably the one who carries a lucky charm and has supersitions and has faith; he needs those things to carry out his next dangerous mission without magical aid.

Spirituality and superstition are not the same thing in D&D. Divine magic is a concrete reality. Superstitions are, by their definition, ineffectual. If a ritual act actual has a deliberate causal relationship with an outcome it isn't superstition. Clerics are, by the very function of their class abilities (divine magical power from on high), convicted rather than superstitious.

- Marty Lund