Sleep. Sleep! SLEEP!

[Thornir Alekeg]

So... The hobgoblin who fails his bonus save is unconscious!

Good use of a enemy power against itself in my opinion! ;-)

And the one who makes it isn't even slowed. I think that is a great trade-off, working exactly as intended.

 

[Mercule]

I thought sleep was pretty darn good, personally.

Okay. Looks like I'm the lone dissenter. I'll accept that we just had a bad run.

 

[Ahglock]

Okay. Looks like I'm the lone dissenter. I'll accept that we just had a bad run.

It seems a decent power I just don't think it seems a decent daily. Maybe not total weaksauce but it seems way too conditional.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Okay. Looks like I'm the lone dissenter. I'll accept that we just had a bad run.

You're not alone. There are many people who think sleep sucks.

I, however disagree. I think you have had an experience involving bad luck on the part of the players, and have yet to use it "right".

Sleep IS swingy, in that it's kinda poor if it all goes wrong. It can go wrong in many ways:
1: The slow doesn't help, because the targets are within 2 of their opponents anyway
2: Most of the attacks miss, and you don't even get the chance to have any fall asleep
3: All (or most) the targets make their save
4: There are very few targets in the inital area

However, all of these can be countered through better use of it, and a little luck:

1: Get everyone away from the targets until they fall asleep. If everyone stays more than 4 squares from a target, they can't get 'em (in melee anyway)
2: Use wand of accuracy with it. Or just roll better. Seriously, on a round in which the wizard rolls well they can sleep a whole lotta guys.
3: Fluke out and have a bunch of 'em miss their save. You have no controll over this, but it's sure nice when it happens. Sleep goes from teh suck to da bomb if you pardon my crappy slang.
4: Work it so there's lots to target. If you get the party working together you can have the fighter Tide of Iron and the rogue whassitcalled push guys into the area before hitting it with the sleep.

Anyway, it can be really good with a little luck and some tactics designed specifically to make it better.

Fitz

 

[Vermonter]

Also consider how the timing of the spell has changed. In 3e sleep was a full round cast and now it is a standard action. This changes how you have to think about the timing.

An example with Wiz low initiative -

3e
Round 1: Kobolds close with party
Round 1: Start casting sleep
Round 2: Kobolds act normally
Round 2: Cast sleep and see who is asleep, take wizard action
Round 3: Clean-up.

4e
Round 1: Kobolds close with party
Round 1: Cast sleep
Round 2: Kobolds act while slowed, some fall asleep
Round 2: Take wizard action, clean-up

So actually in 4e the falling asleep happens a bit faster (on the next kobold turn, rather than next than wizard tunr) than it does in 3e and in the meanwhile the targets are slowed for a round. It just doesn't seem like it because of how the actions play out. If the wiz gets a good initiative roll then he can slow the targets before they even move in the encounter and they may even be asleep before some of his fellow party members take their first action. Last, as a standard action sleep may now be cast in the surprise round. All lots of reasons not to jump to an 'underpowered' conclusion.

 

[Jhaelen]

I'd definitely prefer sleep over acid arrow. I also think it's more powerful in 4e than it was in 3e. Especially since it can potentially affect any kind of creature at any level.

 

[frankthedm]

Mercule, sleep is weak if you cast it on already engaged targets. A huge portion if its power is that it auto-slows. Throw taat away by using it after melee begins and it won't seem all that hot.

 

[Hussar]

I think also, that sleep fits with the controller aspect of wizards. If the enemy is already engaging your allies, you've already failed in controlling the battlefield. The whole point of the controller is to prevent the enemy from engaging you in their terms.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Mercule, sleep is weak if you cast it on already engaged targets. A huge portion if its power is that it auto-slows. Throw taat away by using it after melee begins and it won't seem all that hot.

True - even if they're "only" 4-6 squares away, the slowing can delay them for an entire round, giving you an extra round of ranged fire (which is huge). That you can potentially knock people out of combat completely (even for a short) time, is the extra gravy that makes it a daily power.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Vaeron]

It seems a decent power I just don't think it seems a decent daily. Maybe not total weaksauce but it seems way too conditional.

It couldn't be anything but a daily... I don't know if you've seen it in action, but every creature effected (now that saves are 1-10 on a d20) has a 50% chance of passing completely out until they DO save. Slow in itself (no save) is very helpful. Since it's an area effect, burst 2 no less, a wizard should be using it at range anyway. That means that, automatically, a group of effected enemies will not be able to reach the party on their turn even if they're only 4 squares away. And there's a 50% chance half of them will fall asleep as soon as they do move, and a 50% chance they'll *stay* asleep on their next turn.

Kots Encounter A3 with Acid Arrow - easy TPK. Encounter A3 with Sleep - all character's injured, but triumphant. I speak from bitter personal experience. I don't know how that encounter made it through playtesting.