Sleep. Sleep! SLEEP!

[LightPhoenix]

Snip spoilers

Vaeron, please spoiler block your spoilers for KotS. Some of us will be playing it at a later date, and are trying to avoid any information about encounters, especially in a thread that is not about KotS per se.

 

[DSRilk]

I think it's a matter of figuring out how to take advantage of the situation. The spell will be cast when the party is in trouble. Even if the enemy is already in melee and the attack misses, that's one round of slow, which means move of 2. The front line can then disengage using a move to shift 1, then their standard to move 5 or 6. That puts them 6 or 7 squares away. As stated previously, the enemy is slowed for 1 round regardless, meaning even if the move and charge, they still only get 4 squares -- not enough to re-engage. Meaning the PCs can re-engage in the format they desire and guarantee they aren't attacked that round, giving the cleric and pally that may be back row a chance to heal people without a danger of those newly healed people going back down again during the same round. Plus, some of those targets may end up asleep next round. That's all good. Yes, if you think of it as an "unconscious" spell only, it may not do what you want. If, however, you think of it as battlefield control, it's good even if you miss and they make their first save.

 

[Agamon]

What did I do?

Oh quit whinin', you made your save!

 

[Felon]

Okay. Looks like I'm the lone dissenter. I'll accept that we just had a bad run.

No, you're not alone. Sleep sucks now. Can't even put minions down with it. Shouldn't even be called "sleep" anymore.

 

[Ahglock]

It couldn't be anything but a daily... I don't know if you've seen it in action, but every creature effected (now that saves are 1-10 on a d20) has a 50% chance of passing completely out until they DO save. Slow in itself (no save) is very helpful. Since it's an area effect, burst 2 no less, a wizard should be using it at range anyway. That means that, automatically, a group of effected enemies will not be able to reach the party on their turn even if they're only 4 squares away. And there's a 50% chance half of them will fall asleep as soon as they do move, and a 50% chance they'll *stay* asleep on their next turn.

Kots Encounter A3 with Acid Arrow - easy TPK. Encounter A3 with Sleep - all character's injured, but triumphant. I speak from bitter personal experience. I don't know how that encounter made it through playtesting.

50% is way too swingy, and they have to be at range for the slow to mean anything. When I got to take the IF train for too long I don't think a power should be a daily.

If I am not surprised, if I win initiative, if they are still at range, if the saves go my way that is a lot of ifs. A daily should be a go to pull your bacon out of the fire spell, not the last resort maybe things will go my way and it wont suck spell.

Not saying it is total sucktastic, but it seems a bit weak for a daily. Maybe a bit good for an encounter power, but still weak for a daily.

 

[Surgoshan]

No, you're not alone. Sleep sucks now. Can't even put minions down with it. Shouldn't even be called "sleep" anymore.

Casting sleep on two or three enemies isn't a very good use of your resources. At small numbers, it's going to seem swingy. Cast it on a large group of any level creatures and you're going to put about half of whomever you hit to sleep. It scales with level because your ability to hit with it is going to go up. Before it was a broken low level spell that swiftly became useless.

 

[DSRilk]

they have to be at range for the slow to mean anything

This is incorrect.

The slow part is automatic for 1 round. This means for 1 round EVERY enemy in the area is slowed. Imagine a scenario where 4 creatures are locked in melee with a fighter and rogue (not an uncommon scenario in 4e). The creatures attack and badly damage both of them. The wizard (the warrior and rogue just delay if they're before the wizard) casts sleep. All 4 of the enemy melee combatants are GUARANTEED to be slowed. Now the injured fighter and rogue are up. The fighter and rogue shift out of melee with their move action and move 5 (or 6) squares with their standard action. The cleric and paladin safely heal the fighter and rogue. The enemy is now up and our combatants are 6 or 7 squares away. The enemy uses all their actions to move 4 squares -- they're now STILL not in range to attack and on average 1 falls asleep and 1 is still slowed. The cleric and paladin can heal again or not as necessary. With 1 daily, the party has taken 1 combatant out of the fight (or created a helpless target, which can't be good for that enemy) and given two "free" heals. That's nice.

Here's some more useful juju -- the rogue is attacking a slowed target. He uses Positioning Strike (level 1 encounter power) to do damage and slide the creature back 3 squares. With his move action, he then backs up 2 or 3 more. On the creature's turn, even double moving, it can't reach him -- the rogue just gained what amounts to a free attack.

Slow is useful if you use it tactically to your advantage and is also very nice in combination with other powers -- especially rogue and ranged combatant powers.

So, it's good at range if there are ranged attackers, it's good even close up if you use it tactically. It's a GREAT control spell - it gives you real control of the melee battle field for at least one round, and that can easily turn the tide.

So, how is it compared to other level 1 dailies?

Wizard Daily: Sleep = battlefield control for at least 1 round allowing an extra round of healing, repositioning, and potentially free strikes PLUS an average of 1 opponent being rendered helpless when used on groups of 3+.

Cleric Daily: CoL = 3[W] against one creature and an average of +7.5 damage over the next two rounds. Minimum it guarantees 1.5x weapon damage.

Fighter Daily: BS = guaranteed 3[W]
Paladin Daily: OPoD = 3[W] against 1 creature + an average of 1.5d8 over two rounds. Minimum guarantees half that.

Ranger Daily: SpT = 2[W] versus 2 creatures with better than average chance to hit.

Warlord Daily: PtF = 3[W] + target can't shift if two of you are adjacent.
Warlord Daily: WRO = 3[W] + slide an ally 1 when you and your friends hit.

Warlock Daily: CotDD = 3d8 + slide enemy 3 squares, sustain minor to keep sliding that target 1 each round.

Basically, the others average (fighters are usually a bit higher) 3d8+ability vs one creature and you can either move it a bit or move yourself a bit. Personally, guaranteed control of enemy positions for 1 round giving me the ability to safely heal and reengage as I desire, plus the average of taking 1 guy out of the fight entirely for a couple rounds, is FAR better to me than an average of 16 (or 22 in some cases) damage (average of 3d8+4 - assuming you even hit) to ONE guy and controlling his movements a bit.

 

[phil500]

DSR is right. just because a level 1 daily isnt a win button, doesnt make it less awesome. the enemies that do get nailed by sleep will be hacked to bits by the party. you also dont need initiative if youre far enough away.

remember, wizards are about intellimagence. the whole party needs to be on board with their strategy.

Some other classes dailys just allow more damage, usually 2 or 3x their regular damage. knowing when/how to use them is a lot easier.