D&D 5E Sleep Spell 1st-Level, No-Save Death Spell?

[Felon]

I took a long break from RP'ing. Been a couple years at least. I'm very interested in this new editionless edition. Looking through the PHB, I'm very impressed overall. I like the classes, I like the approach to making components like feats and alignment optional, and I like the idea of spells having a consistent mechanic regarding their effectiveness improving by assigning higher slots.

I haven't done a real cover-to-cover deep-dive yet, however, so I thought I'd check with you guys about the one thing that set a bunch of alarms off: the new sleep spell. No saving throw is mentioned, and it works off of current hit points, and can be improved by slotting it at higher levels. Rather than its traditional role of being a spell intended for dropping groups of weak foes, this version seems quite deadly when used against a single character. The hit points it affects averages 14 at 1st-level, and then 7 more for every slot level assigned to it. That's a pretty high base relative to level, and doesn't even account for the target taking some damage before getting whammied.

As in previous versions, a sleeping target wakes up if they take damage, but if you can simply slit a sleeping victim's throat, that's not much condolence for him. I can easily envision scenarios where one character casts sleep, and an ally steps in to deliver the death blow. It hits the character with the lowest hit points within 20 feet first, but I think that's going to be pretty manageable much of the time.

So, I guess I'm asking if there are limiting factors than I'm not aware of. Is there no coup de grace option in this edition, for instance, so you can't just lop of a sleeping foes head in one hit?

I searched for a thread for this spell specifically and didn't find one. If it's been discussed already, sorry.

 

[Astrosicebear]

Powerful indeed but instead of save or suck, its roll well or suck. In 5E most encounters will be above the 'pay grade' of the HP limits of this spell. Even using a 9th level spell slot resulting in 21d8 HP, the average is only 84... thats equivalent to a CR4-5 monster? Not very good use of a 9th spell slot.

 

[Tormyr]

As Thaumaturge once said, "The save for sleep is having more hit points." At 22 average hp, that will affect mayber 2 or 3 PCs at full hp. Elves are immune. There should be some party members that are awake and can shake awake other party members or administer healing if a baddie knocks them unconscious.

Yes, it can be quite deadly if the party is already low on hp. Welcome to 5e.

We need an evil laugh smiley.

 

[Faradon]

As Thaumaturge once said, "The save for sleep is having more hit points." At 22 average hp, that will affect mayber 2 or 3 PCs at full hp. Elves are immune.

Good point with elves being immune. Wouldn't they also eat up the HP of the spell? If there was an elf in the AoE with 5 HP, the spell would target them in order of HP like normal, but they would be unaffected by the spell right?

 

[IgnatiusJ.Reilly]

The average HP roll is about 20 when used as a first level spell. Useful against kobolds (5 HP), and to a lesser extent goblins (7 HP). DMs seem to be using max HP for creatures, so it's little use except for injured monsters. Even when they are weakened, the front liners could likely take them out with a single swing, or could be taken out with Magic Missile anyway. I not complaining mind you, at least it's not as worthless as Color Spray with its 1 round duration, or worse yet, Sleep could be a concentration spell.

 

[RangerWickett]

Just always adventure with a basket of baby chickens on your back. Each has 1 hit point.

 

[drjones]

There is nothing about sleep that allows it to avoid allies. So unless you are super-metagaming you don't know if the fighter surrounded by goblins has 5 hp or 20 or how many the goblins have. Sure you might take out all the goblins, or you might ensure the fighter gets massive damage and dies. And you are paying a slot for that.

And by design it is always going to go after the weakest targets first, those you would not need a lot of resources to kill otherwise. It's mostly useful for cleaning up trash so you don't get overwhelmed by a horde of mooks focus-firing you but even for that there are more precise instruments.

Not exactly an I Win button.

 

[1of3]

Compare it to Magic Missile. If you hit a single target, the damage of Magic Missile is the same as the "damage" of Sleep, on average.

But while Magic Missile deducts from the target's HP in any case, Sleep is an all or nothing affair.

The advantage of Sleep is that you can indeed affect a group of weak targets. (With the limitation of possibly affecting allies.)

Also the maximum "damage" (18) is higher than Magic Missile's (15), while the minimum "damage" is lower (3 vs. 6).

So if you feel lucky, use Sleep. If you don't, use Magic Missile.

 

[sithramir]

Compare it to Magic Missile. If you hit a single target, the damage of Magic Missile is the same as the "damage" of Sleep, on average.

But while Magic Missile deducts from the target's HP in any case, Sleep is an all or nothing affair.

The advantage of Sleep is that you can indeed affect a group of weak targets. (With the limitation of possibly affecting allies.)

Also the maximum "damage" (18) is higher than Magic Missile's (15), while the minimum "damage" is lower (3 vs. 6).

So if you feel lucky, use Sleep. If you don't, use Magic Missile.

Sleep is 5d8 isn't it?

 

[1of3]

Sleep is 5d8 isn't it?

Oh, ooops. Why did I think it was 3d6? Was that in the playtest?