Sleight-of-hand in combat

[Pielorinho]

The sleight-of-hand description states that taking an object from someone is normally a standard action. That's only important if you are doing it in combat.

My question is, how do you decide whether to use the sleight-of-hand rules or the grabbing items rules on page 155?

My thinking is that an item that's a piece of clothing or jewelry (necklace, goggles, cloak, etc.) uses the "Grabbing an item" rule. Items that aren't pieces of clothing (potions, purses, etc.) use "sleight of hand" rules.

And you can always use grabbing an item rules if you'd prefer; if you do, you're automatically noticed.

Does this sound right to folks? And where would you draw the line? Can I SoH someone's spell-component pouch, their holy symbol, their backpack, their scrollcase?

I've got a bard character, and I'm thinking this might be a fun combat trick when fighting spellcasters, especially if they've got a wand or something that I can sneakily grab and try to UMD with next round.

Daniel

 

[Tessarael]

I would use the grabbing an item rule in combat. I would use Sleight of Hand rules when the opponent is not aware that you are hostile (e.g. walking down the street, next to someone in a bar).

 

[Corlon]

I would use the grabbing an item rule in combat. I would use Sleight of Hand rules when the opponent is not aware that you are hostile (e.g. walking down the street, next to someone in a bar).

I agree, so the new trick would be take the spell component pouches, wands, and scrollcases from a spellcaster and then pick a fight with them

 

[Pielorinho]

I would agree iwth that interpretation, except that it lists Sleight-of-Hand as taking a standard action, and to the best of my knowledge, this is only an issue during combat.

Daniel

 

[Len]

My thinking is that an item that's a piece of clothing or jewelry (necklace, goggles, cloak, etc.) uses the "Grabbing an item" rule. Items that aren't pieces of clothing (potions, purses, etc.) use "sleight of hand" rules.

I don't understand your thinking. Why is a necklace hanging around the neck "clothing" but a purse hanging from the belt isn't? Does it depend on whether the item is above or below the waist??

My take is that you can use either method. Rogues will choose sleight of hand and fighters will try to grab the item with a disarm check. Just like you can use bluff, diplomacy or intimidation when you're questioning an NPC; tumble or mobility when you're moving in a threatened area; etc.

 

[likuidice]

Rules wise, it is an action you can take, just like any other, in a combat situation. For example, you can attempt to spot something, hear something, search an area etc. Also note that unless you use the option to make it a free action (a -20 penalty) it causes an attack of opportunity. The skill is trained only, so those without the skill can use the grabbing an item rules. Also note that if you succeed on the DC 20 check, you take the item, whether your opponent notices or not. Consider also that the character must have a hand free, which negates the use of a shield (except a buckler), two weapon fighting or two handed weapons (unless you have the quick draw feat, or the ascetic rogue feat, allowing you to fight barehanded like a monk).

 

[frankthedm]

In combat with aware foes i would let the rouge use his slight of hand ranks +Dex rather than BAB + STR for grabing items in whatever apropiate manner.

 

[silentspace]

I always thought Sleight of Hand could be used in combat. Not to disarm someone though

 

[Pielorinho]

Yeah--I definitely don't think you should be able to use it to grab something out of someone's hands. And I'm pretty skeptical that you could use it to hoist someone's backpack without them noticing, or nick their greatsword off their back, or jimmy their shield loose, or anything like that.

Perhaps a good rule of thumb would be that you can SoH something that weighs 1 pound or less with a normal check, and each pound over 1 imposes a -1 penalty to the check? That way, I could still get someone's greatsword, but it'd be much more difficult than taking their wand of magic missiles.

I wonder if I could take a ring off their hand? Make it look like a grapple check that I failed, or something like that.

Heh, this recalls a junior-high incident, in which a jock scooped me up and carried me around the gym as some sort of oafish showing-offishness. While he did that, I unbuckled his watch from his wrist and palmed it; I gave it back to him later, delighting in his bafflement at how I got it. I guess SoH in a grapple works well.

Daniel

 

[ARandomGod]

I do it simple.

If the character says he's using sleight of hand, it's sleight of hand. If he says he's grabbing, it's grabbing.