Sleight-of-hand in combat

[Saeviomagy]

Yeah--I definitely don't think you should be able to use it to grab something out of someone's hands. And I'm pretty skeptical that you could use it to hoist someone's backpack without them noticing, or nick their greatsword off their back, or jimmy their shield loose, or anything like that.

Perhaps a good rule of thumb would be that you can SoH something that weighs 1 pound or less with a normal check, and each pound over 1 imposes a -1 penalty to the check? That way, I could still get someone's greatsword, but it'd be much more difficult than taking their wand of magic missiles.

I wonder if I could take a ring off their hand? Make it look like a grapple check that I failed, or something like that.

The sleight of hand table suggests that it's only possible with a "small" item. That in mind, scroll cases, spell component pouches and the like are all possible.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The sleight of hand table suggests that it's only possible with a "small" item.

Like a dead halfling?

-Hyp.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Sleight of hand is useful so that the victim doesn't notice it. It's kind of like a fient, and doing it in combat would be a different system from grabbing something.

When you're grabbing an item, you're not taking any pains to be stealthy or conniving about it...they see you, you see them, you reach out, grab something, and pull.

When you're using Slyte of Hand, it's more quick fingerwork that they aren't supposed to notice.

So a use of SoH in combat to,say, grab a ring off of someone's finger, would be probably described as the defender fending off a few weak, half-hearted, distracting slaps from the attacker (the one using SoH). If he passes the check to notice, perhaps he sees that when he blocked the slap with his hand, the attacker slipped the ring off his finger in the process. Similarly, it can probably be done to cut a strap, throw a latch, snatch something from the belt, etc. Could you steal a greatsword? Probably no, since you can't really do that very sneaky. Could you, say, slice the leather that holds the greatsword case on the foe's back? Probably sure. SoH, and then damage the item. Can you grab a ring off of someone's sword hand as they thrust it at you? Sure. Snatch a wand? A component pouch? Why not! They're not large.

 

[Pielorinho]

Also note that unless you use the option to make it a free action (a -20 penalty) it causes an attack of opportunity.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you explain this to me? I'm not sure why it would cause an AoO--especially if the target fails the spot check.

Daniel

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you explain this to me? I'm not sure why it would cause an AoO--especially if the target fails the spot check.

Because ...

Action: Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a –20 penalty on the check.

Use skill that takes 1 action: Usually

Use Skill
Most skill uses are standard actions, but some might be move actions, full-round actions, free actions, or something else entirely.

The individual skill descriptions tell you what sorts of actions are required to perform skills.

Note that the ability to make a Sleight of Hand check as a free action does not mean it does not provoke an AoO. It just means you can do it faster.

 

[ARandomGod]

Note that the ability to make a Sleight of Hand check as a free action does not mean it does not provoke an AoO. It just means you can do it faster.

Sleight of hand is built so that it's done unnoticed by the target. Or supposed to be unnoticed. If the target doesn't make his spot, I don't think he'd get an AoO. But then, even outside of combat, if the target makes a spot, I'd say he get's an AoO if he's capable of taking it (not flatfooted for some reason like Combat Reflexes, armed or unarmed strike, etcetera).

If you don't see something that would otherwise provoke an AoO, you don't get said AoO. You can invisibly walk up to someone and totally moon them, an action which normally not only provokes, but insults as well... and if you're invisible and they can't see you, they can't take that AoO. But on the plus side they didn't see your moon either.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Sleight of hand is built so that it's done unnoticed by the target. Or supposed to be unnoticed. If the target doesn't make his spot, I don't think he'd get an AoO.

Maybe that's why the rules indicate "Usually"? *shrug*

I mean, I can see that a non-spotted pick pockets attempt might not trigger the AoO, so I can certainly appreciate your position.

However, I've always figured that the opposed Spot roll was for noticing your pockets getting picked outside of combat. Inside of combat, you're threatening the character that's attempting the pick-pockets attempt, and therefore you're already watching them closely. Whether or not you detect what they're grabbing from you, they're still dropping their guard enough to try for your purse, rather than trying to engage your blade.

Again, though, I understand where you're coming from (and thanks for the opinions!), and so it'll probably be left up to DM opinion / ruling.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I would think that sleight of hand would trigger an AoO. It is a form of unarmed attack, just like a grab attempt, which triggers an AoO. The difference in Sleight of Hand is not that the opponent does not notice the attack, they just do not realize what you have actually done (as in the example above about slapping at a hand, but in fact taking a ring). It is using distraction to allow you to do it unnoticed, not outright stealth. If Sleight of Hand can be used to avoid an AoO by grabbing an item unnoticed, it is a small leap to using it to strike someone unarmed unnoticed.

 

[ARandomGod]

Maybe that's why the rules indicate "Usually"? *shrug*

I mean, I can see that a non-spotted pick pockets attempt might not trigger the AoO, so I can certainly appreciate your position.

However, I've always figured that the opposed Spot roll was for noticing your pockets getting picked outside of combat. Inside of combat, you're threatening the character that's attempting the pick-pockets attempt, and therefore you're already watching them closely. Whether or not you detect what they're grabbing from you, they're still dropping their guard enough to try for your purse, rather than trying to engage your blade.

Again, though, I understand where you're coming from (and thanks for the opinions!), and so it'll probably be left up to DM opinion / ruling.

Yea, and I see the grab position ruling too.
Of course, to further the no AoO if not spotted opinion, sleight of hand can be used to entertain, and one assumes that people being entertained by this are watching closely, and aren't seeing you do it. Plus they're watching you closely specifically for sleight of hand, whereas in combat you're really more watching the hand with the sword than the bare one with your beltpouch...
(Player: Wait, with MY beltpouch? How's he do that?)
(GM: You don't know. But something tells you you might not like it if he gets flanking.)

 

[Saeviomagy]

Like a dead halfling?

-Hyp.

Well, there's not much in the way of definition there - we'd have to hearken back to 3.0, when a dead halfling was probably a large object...