Sliding into the unknown ?
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Dr_Ruminahui
First Post
One needs line of effect, but not line of sight - which means that, for most cases, you could not push the person behind a solid wall, as the wall breaks LOE. You could, however, push them into the darkness.
The rules for forced movement are on pages 210-11 of the rules compendium.
Personally, I would be inclined, for the most part, to not require LOE for pushes... but that would be a houserule on my part.
The rules for forced movement are on pages 210-11 of the rules compendium.
Personally, I would be inclined, for the most part, to not require LOE for pushes... but that would be a houserule on my part.
The question for me would be, where is the line of effect coming from. I would say that the effect is coming from the target, not the attacker.
For instance, a magic attack hits the target and teleports them 5 squares. This distance is measured from the target hit, not the attacker. I would say that the line of effect then is also measured from the target.
As such, I would say that there is no reason you could not slide somebody in the corridor with you through a doorway (you would have no line of effect to the room past the doorway). Apart from that, it would feel silly to me to picture that being impossible.
I'm aware this may well be an interpretation at least boarding on a houserule.
For instance, a magic attack hits the target and teleports them 5 squares. This distance is measured from the target hit, not the attacker. I would say that the line of effect then is also measured from the target.
As such, I would say that there is no reason you could not slide somebody in the corridor with you through a doorway (you would have no line of effect to the room past the doorway). Apart from that, it would feel silly to me to picture that being impossible.
I'm aware this may well be an interpretation at least boarding on a houserule.
Incenjucar
Legend
If you smack me upside the head so hard that you scramble my brain and I tumble 20 feet away, my tumbling is no way going to be impaired by whether or not you can see where I'm going.
Ryujin
Legend
Sure, except that the rules are agnostic as to what power source is used, to obtain an effect. Just as you can't slide someone with the Arcane power source, without line of sight and line of effect, you can't do it with Martial powers.
I would, however, allow the opponent to be slid into a square to which the attacker has no line of sight or line of effect to. Just no further than that. The 'force' is acting upon the opponent from a position where the attacker had both.
Then we get into blasts at a distance, and the point of origin of that attack, and my statement goes all to hell as the point of origin of the attack, in that case, isn't the attacker himself.
Dr_Ruminahui
First Post
Yeah, that would be a houserule - the rules say that (unless the rules specify otherwise) the origin square is always the "caster". And, unlike the rules for area attacks, there is nothing (AFAIK) in any of these powers that changes that.
That said, I would generally allow such forced movement, which some caveats. For example, with thunderwave, you don't have to push the target in a straight line - which can make sense if you have LOE to the target (you manipulate the forces to curve the trajectory around obstacles) but less so when you can't see him. So, I would generally not allow direction changes outside of LOE unless a) the caster is familiar with the terrain that's outside of his/her LOE and b) its a charm/domination/fear effect.
I would be interested to see the wording on forced movement. It would make sense if it is something that the affected party is doing (albiet unwillingly), not the attacker. So only the victim requires line of effect.
If I have a Warlord ability that lets my friend make a charge action, do I have to have line of effect to his target? What about a "friends can shift/slide 3 squares" effect? I think most people would think of that as something their friends are doing.
What about a fear spell? "The target immediately moves its speed away from you". The target is the one moving, move is a defined action that it is taking.
Once the target has been hit, are there any references to line-of-effect anymore? An attack requires LoE, but I believe that could be only to hit, not reassessed at every stage of resolving the "hit" or "effect" paramaters.
I don't have my books on me, that is just stuff I would like to look up when I can be bothered.
If I have a Warlord ability that lets my friend make a charge action, do I have to have line of effect to his target? What about a "friends can shift/slide 3 squares" effect? I think most people would think of that as something their friends are doing.
What about a fear spell? "The target immediately moves its speed away from you". The target is the one moving, move is a defined action that it is taking.
Once the target has been hit, are there any references to line-of-effect anymore? An attack requires LoE, but I believe that could be only to hit, not reassessed at every stage of resolving the "hit" or "effect" paramaters.
I don't have my books on me, that is just stuff I would like to look up when I can be bothered.
Dr_Ruminahui
First Post
Well, really it depends on the mechanic used.
For forced movement (so, pulls, pushes & slides) the rules for forced movement specifically (see pp. 210 & 211 of the Rules Compendium) require that the "square of origin" have line of effect to each square of the forced movement. Unless the power or some other rule says otherwise the square of origin is the "caster". For example, an area burst power would draw LoE from the center square of the burst. Few forced movement powers have such language (the only ones that come to mind are zones that pull things towards their middle, like the Visions of Avarice power).
The power might also grant a move of some sort, typically as a free action - this is how most warlord powers work. For such powers, one only needs to meet the LOE/LOS requirements (if any) for the original power - the "caster" doesn't need LOE to the squares the target then moves into. All of the examples you gave fall into the "granted movement" category.
Asides for LOE for the move, the major difference is triggering opportunity attacks - forced movement doesn't trigger opportunity attacks, but granted movement can.
Powers against enemies tend to use the forced movement method, and those "cast" on allies tend to use the granted movement method. The exceptions tend to be charm and fear powers - there doesn't seem to be much/any consistency in how they work.
For forced movement (so, pulls, pushes & slides) the rules for forced movement specifically (see pp. 210 & 211 of the Rules Compendium) require that the "square of origin" have line of effect to each square of the forced movement. Unless the power or some other rule says otherwise the square of origin is the "caster". For example, an area burst power would draw LoE from the center square of the burst. Few forced movement powers have such language (the only ones that come to mind are zones that pull things towards their middle, like the Visions of Avarice power).
The power might also grant a move of some sort, typically as a free action - this is how most warlord powers work. For such powers, one only needs to meet the LOE/LOS requirements (if any) for the original power - the "caster" doesn't need LOE to the squares the target then moves into. All of the examples you gave fall into the "granted movement" category.
Asides for LOE for the move, the major difference is triggering opportunity attacks - forced movement doesn't trigger opportunity attacks, but granted movement can.
Powers against enemies tend to use the forced movement method, and those "cast" on allies tend to use the granted movement method. The exceptions tend to be charm and fear powers - there doesn't seem to be much/any consistency in how they work.
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