Slings are... wow, really?

[aboyd]

Are they that deadly? I noticed in the Wikipedia page this quote:

The sling was used for hunting and warfare. One notable use was in Incan resistance against the conquistadors. These slings were apparently very powerful; in 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus, historian Charles C. Mann quoted a conquistador, who said that an Incan sling "could break a sword in two pieces" and "kill a horse." Some slings could hurl massive stones and its span could be as much as 86 inches (2.18 m) and could weigh an impressive 14.4 ounces (408g).

The ranges discussed there are also substantially greater than anything I've seen in the D&D books.

I started looking on youtube.com for anything that might back up such a bold assertion, and found some fun things but nothing like video of actual big game being felled by a stone.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWHV2WYdfTI[/ame] This guy has sling stones going 38 meters/second, or about 85 miles per hour.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0icKGs4Ge0[/ame] This video is fun too.

At slinging.org, they have this interesting quote:

Its main competitor, the bow, had both a shorter range and slower rate of fire.

Yet in D&D, our stats are all pretty much the opposite: slings are slower than bows or the same, have shorter range, and do less damage.

So what do I hope to gain from this thread? Well, first, if anyone does work with slings, I'd like to hear more about their effectiveness. However, secondly and more importantly, I'd like to hear from anyone who knows of sling variants (or variant bullets) in the rules. So far all I've found is that in the 3rd party Kingdoms of Kalamar book, there is a sling bullet that looks like a golf ball, and has a range 20% greater than normal.

If I really wanted to make slinging deadly, are there variant bullets or slings within the rules that might aid me? Thanks!

EDIT: here is a really long video that puts the sling to the test. It seems that great slingers are shockingly accurate & deadly, but only the great ones.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELYea2UDfeY[/ame]

 

[frankthedm]

WFRP2e seemed to treat slings reasonably well.

Slings in fiction-land often get shortchanged. Suffer The Slings

 

[Greenfield]

So, in game terms, David got a critical hit on a called shot. Cool!

 

[Empirate]

Ancient history is full of deadly slingers. The Balearic Isles were known for producing deadly slingers who outranged bowmen, could fire more accurately at a distance, and produced a veritable hail of bullets. The Balearics were, in fact, named for their specialty (note the similar wordstem compared to ballistics).

 

[Ashtagon]

I did some statistical analysis a while back.

First, it's worth bearing in mind that the incredible upper ranges of slings are achieved by people who have been practising for a long time (in game terms, spent a feat on boosting range), and are using much lighter ammunition. The smallest slingshots used in the same data had weights of less than 1/10 lb. The 'standard' D&D sling uses ammo of 1/2 lb weight. That will have a much shorter range by virtue of its weight. Indeed, once you eliminate the outliers and eliminate those data points with differently-weighted shot, the D&D sling does in fact correspond in range to the weapon data from that slinging website.

My overall changes to the sling are as follows:

* Create a feat to allow for increased range (+50% to base range with slings, stacks with Far Shot).
* Allow slings to benefit from iterative attacks.
* Allow slings to benefit from either Strength or Wisdom for damage bonuses (this is part of an overall change to projectile weapons generally to grant Wisdom to damage).

 

[Rhun]

* Allow slings to benefit from either Strength or Wisdom for damage bonuses (this is part of an overall change to projectile weapons generally to grant Wisdom to damage).

Why Wisdom?

 

[Empirate]

Well, the Longbow was supposed to be trained from youth in order to master it. English kings made decrees that said every capable youth must train regularly, and this training was supervised by government officials, because it was considered the only thing that kept England in the war with France.

'Mastering' the Longbow meaning the capability to deliver (non-direct target) volley fire at long range, at a rate of fire of about 6 to 10 in a minute, more under extreme circumstances - but who really carries around that much ammo for a battle? The Longbow required massive strength to use, and massive amounts of training, just to deliver indirect fire support.

So while the Longbow was capable of the things the D&D rules tell us (iterative attacks, for example), that was its peak performance in the hands of specialists.

In D&D, this is simply reflected by needing martial weapon proficiency. So a generic Fighter has apparently trained enough in his downtime to master the Longbow along with the Longsword, Rapier, Greataxe, Kukri, Guisarme, Javelin, Longspear, Heavy Flail, Scimitar, Trident, Greatsword, Warhammer, Lance, and Scythe.

Looking at this data, I'd say: needing another feat to be able to use a sling like a pro shouldn't be necessary.

 

[Greenfield]

The law required every able bodied man over the age of 14 to own a longbow and to practice at least 6 hours a week. And no, there wasn't a government official who supervised the practice sessions. The local pastor could call the men of the village together to practice, but that was about it.

A pastor in England discovered last year that the law was still on the books, and decided to use it. She called the men of the town together under that law as part of a church picnic.

The way practice was "enforced" was archery tournaments, with cash prizes. Think of the famous scene from Robin Hood, if you will. In a land that was essentially under military occupation (Normans lording it over the Saxons), nobody thought it at all odd that pretty much everyone in sight owned a weapon. Think about that.

As for the number of arrows used: There was a cycle referred to as "end to end", where archers gathered the arrows their enemies had fired at them and reused them. The same arrows flew in both directions.

And the average archer in time of war carried a lot more than the 20 arrows a D&D quiver carries. At the battle of Agincourt, 5,000 British archers faced 60,000 French knights and infantry. Outnumbered 12 to 1, the archers pretty much kicked the infantry's ass. They were the artillery of the age.

There is a Korean archery trick that I saw demonstrated to defeat the "End to end" cycle. Using a long grooved rod as a guide for the arrow, they can shoot a dart-sized arrow as short as six inches from a standard Korean horse bow. The rod acts as a guide, and the lightweight projectile takes off at a much higher velocity than the normal arrow, and carries for a much greater range. They get to plink at enemy forces when the enemy thinks they are safely beyond bowshot, and leave the enemy with arrows they can't fire back.

 

[Hassassin]

Under King Henry VIII in the first half of the 16th century most English peasants were required by law to practice with the longbow. No one over 24 could practice at a range of less than 220 yards (200 m/660 ft.) and practice was regular at least every Sunday.

 

[Empirate]

Greenfield, thanks for the great knowledgeable input, I appreciate it! I love me some historical debate!

Therefore, here's some minor nitpicks from a historian: Azincourt might have been a lot closer in numbers. Recent research puts the numbers as close as 6,000 to 9,000. Personally, I believe the numeric gap to be greater, maybe up to a 1:3, but certainly not 1:12.
Even bodkin arrows cannot pierce good steel (which most of the French were wearing) at other than point blank range, so the mighty Longbow cannot have won that battle on its own. The exaggerated numbers are mostly due to (English) chroniclers - to exaggerate numbers is a normal tendency of the period.

Also, by 1415, Normans didn't lord it over Saxons anymore. The nation that had been made up of those two groups had long before fused into Englishness. The most recent studies put that fusion at around 1200 at the latest.