Slings are... wow, really?

[Jhaelen]

I always liked slings in the Runequest rpg.

Initially I was a bit surprised they count as an impaling weapon, but after some research I understood why. Slings were particularly nasty when used by trolls who chew 'bolgs' (a lead coin; the troll currency) and use them as sling bullets...

So, yes, slings in D&D are underestimated.

 

[Mark CMG]

Someone else asked why Wisdom to damage. It's because it reflects the idea of being able to perceive weak spots more accurately. All ranged weapons get Wisdom to damage in my house rules. Mighty bows and slings get a choice of Wisdom or Strength (not both) to damage.

Based on the premise of allowing Wisdom as a damage bonus choice based on finding weak spots, why would non-ranged weapons be any different? Also, why not Intelligence instead of Wisdom?

 

[Greenfield]

Question: What is the issue with using slings at full BAB? I've read the rules and there doesn't appear to be any limit or penalty on BAB.

Loading one is a move action, so you're limited to one shot per round, but actually drawing the ammo is a free action, according to RAW. I'd be more inclined to extend Rapid Reload to slings to allow for multiple shots than I would Quick Draw. Seems more appropriate.

 

[FoxWander]

Question: What is the issue with using slings at full BAB? I've read the rules and there doesn't appear to be any limit or penalty on BAB.

Loading one is a move action, so you're limited to one shot per round, but actually drawing the ammo is a free action, according to RAW. I'd be more inclined to extend Rapid Reload to slings to allow for multiple shots than I would Quick Draw. Seems more appropriate.

Well, there isn't a limit/penalty to BAB. By "full BAB", I think aboyd just meant getting the multiple attacks from high BAB.

Rapid Reload does seem more applicable for getting iterative attacks with a sling. Even though by RAW it's limited to crossbows, that feat at least seems to be aimed at mitigating the complicated actions of reloading which would be what makes loading a sling a move action- just as it is with a crossbow. Since pulling out ammo is already a free action, Quick Draw seems less applicable. Although, some DMs (like aboyd) might allow Quick Draw to work simply because it's a more taken/popular feat so it lessens the feat investment to make slings more effective- something most posters in this thread (myself included) seem to think they should be.

 

[Ashtagon]

Based on the premise of allowing Wisdom as a damage bonus choice based on finding weak spots, why would non-ranged weapons be any different? Also, why not Intelligence instead of Wisdom?

Wisdom because that is the ability score that Spot/Perception is keyed off, and it plays very well into the David (religiously-inspired (ie Wisdom) warrior) vs Goliath trope.

It's basically there because ranged weapons by RAW don't have any ability score bonus to damage, and this gimps ranged weapons just as much as not having iterative attacks. As for why melee weapons shouldn't have this, it's an arbitrary balance thing.

If you don't like it, don't play that house rule.

 

[Greenfield]

It's basically there because ranged weapons by RAW don't have any ability score bonus to damage, and this gimps ranged weapons just as much as not having iterative attacks. As for why melee weapons shouldn't have this, it's an arbitrary balance thing.

???wtf???

Slings and hurled weapons add Strength bonus to damage, and normal bows can be made extra heavy for this purpose (i.e. "Mighty" bows). And that's right our of the RAW, no house rule needed.

 

[Ashtagon]

???wtf???

Slings and hurled weapons add Strength bonus to damage, and normal bows can be made extra heavy for this purpose (i.e. "Mighty" bows). And that's right our of the RAW, no house rule needed.

Well, the sling is gimp by virtue of not having iteratives. The "mighty" bow has a gp cost that is excessive compared to any equivalent-damage melee weapon. Not a problem for PCs (I cheerfully admit the mighty longbow is the only ranged weapon worth owning under RAW), but it makes NPC militia unbelievable as threats. The regular bow is gimped by not having a damage bonus. And the crossbow is gimped by having neither iteratives nor damage bonuses.

Run the figures some time. You'll be astonished at just how weak ranged weapons actually are in D&D.

 

[Mark CMG]

Wisdom because that is the ability score that Spot/Perception is keyed off, and it plays very well into the David (religiously-inspired (ie Wisdom) warrior) vs Goliath trope.

It's basically there because ranged weapons by RAW don't have any ability score bonus to damage, and this gimps ranged weapons just as much as not having iterative attacks. As for why melee weapons shouldn't have this, it's an arbitrary balance thing.

I see.

If you don't like it, don't play that house rule.

People ask questions when someone makes a rules change. Everyone knows that if they don't like a house rule they don't need to use it. Don't be defensive. It's unnecessary.

 

[aboyd]

Although, some DMs (like aboyd) might allow Quick Draw to work simply because it's a more taken/popular feat so it lessens the feat investment to make slings more effective- something most posters in this thread (myself included) seem to think they should be.

I honestly don't care which feat gets used, and hearing about the nuances of rules interpretation here, I'd probably go with Rapid Reload too. My thought is merely that I want slings to have a shot at full BAB multiple attacks, and however we get there is fine (even a new custom feat), so long as the level of investment is the same or less than it is for crossbows & the like.

(Also, wow, I found what I was looking for. The Ultimate Equipment Guide 1 & 2 have natural/chemical/mechanical slings that provide extra damage without magic! Maybe in a little while I'll type up a summary here, just to keep this thread as my catch-all for sling awesomeness. Yay.)

 

[Ashtagon]

I see.

People ask questions when someone makes a rules change. Everyone knows that if they don't like a house rule they don't need to use it. Don't be defensive. It's unnecessary.

Fair enough. It's just that every time I mention that specific house rule, far too many people go lolwut, without taking time to do the maths on just how badly-off ranged weapons actually are. It's reached the point where I'm no longer really interested in even mentioning it because of the storm it generates. It's also a separate tangent, since it's part of my general house rules, not a sling-specific change.

Does anyone have any comments on sling-specific house rules (feat for extra range, and free reload actions)?

ETA: For anyone interested, here are a couple of older threads on this topic:

Concussion from the Skies (sling fix, need help) - Giant in the Playground Forums
Ranged weapon fixes - Giant in the Playground Forums

And here is a comparison of my home-brewed weapon damages, followed by the RAW weapon damages (assumptions are that character has +3 ability score bonus to damage where relevant at 1st level, with an additional +1 each additional level). Sorry for the formatting. I'll try to clean it later.

House Rules
                 BAB+1    BAB+6    BAB+11    BAB+16
Mighty longbow    8.5      15.833    21.       25.3  (also applies to most d10 weapons)
longbow           7.5      14.167    19.       23.1  (also applies to most d8 weapons)
short bow         6.5      12.5      17.       20.9  (also applies to most d6 weapons)
sling             5.5      10.833    15.       18.7  (also applies to most d4 weapons)
hand crossbow     6.5       7.5       8.5       9.5
light crossbow    8.5       9.5      10.5      11.5
heavy crossbow   12.       13.       14.       15.

SRD version
comp. longbow     7.5      14.167    19.       23.1  
longbow           4.5       7.5       9.        9.9  
comp shortbow     6.5      12.5      17.       20.9  
shortbow          3.5       5.833     7.        7.7  
sling             5.5       6.5        7.5      8.5  
hand crossbow     2.5       4.167     5.        5.5  (assumes character has iteratives from Rapid Reload)
light crossbow    4.5       7.5       9.        9.9  (assumes character has iteratives from Rapid Reload)
heavy crossbow    5.5       5.5       5.5       5.5  (halve these numbers without Rapid Reload feat)