Small Weapons?

[Ranger REG]

Wow. We're going on page 7 (or 8) of this thread.

 

[Storyteller01]

As I have noted several times, halflings are NOT the size of 12 year olds. They are the size of 3 year olds. From a google search, mean hand length of a 3 year old is about 10.5 cm, 12 year old 16.3, 18 year old 18.4. As a disclaimer, this was the first site I found that gave such data, so feel free to look for data that substantually disagrees.

As you can see, the difference between 3 and adult is rather larger then from 12 and adult. Between 12 and adult, the lack of experience and developement have far more impact then hand size. At this point, I have shown you that the height, weight and hand size of 12 year olds is closer to adult human then to halflings, so please drop the 12 year olds from your reasons why small creatures shouldn't do less damage.



Well, that seems to pretty much put a cap on things.

First off, something that should have been said a LONG time ago on this thread: Drop martial arts from this whole discussion. Just because a trained martial artist swings a baton a certain way doesn't mean this is the way the vast majority of people use clubs. Eastern martial arts techniques were developed to allow lightly armed and unarmored peasants to fight armed and armored soldiers. For whatever reason, peasants didn't develope these skills in the historical western setting D&D seems to be based on. You also can't compare the martial artists' baton strike to their quarterstaff strike, as your training has no doubt shown you that these two swings use different techniques. Finally, one bit of advice given to children with martial arts training is to NEVER, EVER try to fight an adult if you can run away. You will lose far more often then you win. Even if you are a black belt. This is also this advice given to adults facing someone who is armed. Every martial arts instructors I have known has advocated running away from an armed opponent whenever possible. Even if all they had was a knife.
There, I feel better now.

Now to get on with it:
If you really believe that specialized martial arts techniques are widely used by D&D characters, then nothing I say will convince you otherwise (beating dead horse to prove a point here).
If you really believe a traditional sword swing from someone 1/2 the height and 1/6 the weight has just as much force as a full sized adult, nothing I say will convince you otherwise.
If you honestly think that griping and handling something is the same as being able to wield it in combat, then nothing I say will convince you otherwise.
If you honestly believe that you are just as fast, accurate and hard to disarm with a weapon with a 1/2" grip as you are with that same weapon with a 1" grip or a 3" grip, nothing I say will convince you otherwise.

I many others have tried to show you through various examples and physical statistics (height, weight, etc..) how the D&D system of weapon damage based on size is reasonable. Furthermore, we have shown how it actually hasn't changed the damage that creatures do with with similarly sized weapons, except in very few cases. Through all of this I have tried to be patient and respectful. I wish I could say I had succeeded more thoroughly. It doesn't seem that you have any room in your mind for doubt, or to be convinced that what you think is wrong. You may well think the same of me and of everyone who disagreed with you. Certainly, I would not argue with your right to do so. I am going to cease posting on this thread before I say something that crosses the line. I do reserve the right to rebutt any reply you may make, but am unlikely to say any more on threads topic directly.

I look forward to chatting on other posts.

Good gaming!

Last thing, then I'm out too.


didn't say they were the same size, I said they were comparable in strength.
Also never said that a smalle critter and a human apply the same power, just that it is comparable with a medium using one hand vs a small using two handed.

My 3 year old can pick up a toy 2 1/4" diameter and use it to hit you effectively. Her hand makes a near perfect C. I can do the same with a 4" diameter object, and my optimal grip size is roughly 1 to 2 inches, depending on weight, mass, etc. Given that, how is a smaller race disinclined to use a dagger with a 1" wide handle ineffectively, appling the same ratio.

the strike of a quarter staff and a club are the same fundementally. Maybe its the product of specialized trainging, but here was my instructors take:

If you want to use a bludgeoning weapon, use a hammer first. Don't do the '3 hits and your done' routine. Sink it in one hit. Feel in your hand what is going on. When you use any weapon of this type (and we used batons, quarterstaves, and jo staves) you should feel that same sensation in every strike. Axes also owrk in this manner, with the same feeling and energy transfer.

If you want to use a slashing weapon, cut veggies or fruit for a day. You'll use the same grip and circular motion, with an expansion or detraction of circular size based on the weapon and the strike. The fundemental motion is the same.

If you want to learn peircing weapons, punch. It uses the same body mechanics and defensive posture.

Applying these fundementals across all weapons should give insights on combat strategy overall, not just those specific weapons. Any thing you can do with a wakizashi, you can so with a katana. Anything you can do with a slashing blade, you can do with a wakizashi. The same grip that applies to said weapons also applies to clubs, batons, and hammers. A smaller weapon would not make a difference; find the balance point and range, then apply the same principles. each weapons inherent qualities can be applied for different techniques or maneuvers, but the basic strikes are all the same.

While it is martial training, it is still fact, and the reason why weapon traing cross over is so much faster after the first weapon. And remember, fighting training is a martial art. If military training is different for martial training, then why are trained martial artists the ones the military goes to to create their CQC or close combat systems? It because military combat training is a stripped down, easier to teach version of various martial diciplines. They can do this because Asian and European fighting systems all follow the same rules, and they know this.

My instuructor was as good with rapier, sabers, and jambyas as he was with katanas and wakizashis because he applies these principles. As for anything heavier, I can't say. He doesn't like the loss of speed inherent with those weapons, so he doesn't use them. Remeber, this is a man who fights by choking up on a dagger blade, not its grip, or fight with a katana, one hand on the grip and one hand on the blade for close quarters. What is the negative for this?

As for grip sizes, I may not be as fast, but that is the same as saying that someone fighting with a dagger is as fast as someone fighting with a two handed sword (European type). Mass decreases speed, so fight defensively in that case. Accuracy at this point means creating openings, since anything you throw will be blocked.

If a small race is just as smart and just as well trained (say equal level fighters), why can't they apply the same principles? Given that weapon that are the same size are doing the same damage, and same damage type (hand axe vs axe, dagger vs small shortsword, small great club vs club, baton vs small quarter staff, small spear vs spikes or stilettos, etc. The list does on.), wouldn't it stand to reason that they are built to absorb the same forces and impacts? Also, a small short sword will not be a scaled down short sword, since even a halfling or gnome cannot use a 1" long handle. The blade will be smaller, but the handle still has to be 2" to 3" long, and this gives minimal room for grip manipulation. The best would be 4", which a human can fit with a baseball grip. This goes back (for humans) to choking up on the blade.

I'm not saying that a halfling fighter can do the same damage as a human fighter, but given the penalties they face already, (negative to strength, reduced carrying capacity, etc), given that human children (age five) start training with small weapons because they CAN lift and manipulate them, and given the halflings are much stronger and far more developed then said children, ...how much more 'detail' do you need?

 

[TheEvil]

I'm not saying that a halfling fighter can do the same damage as a human fighter, but given the penalties they face already, (negative to strength, reduced carrying capacity, etc)...

Somehow, I thought it might all come down to this

 

[Storyteller01]

Somehow, I thought it might all come down to this

...And given that a human can wield a knife with a 3" handle without penalty in combat, both in real life and by the RAW (since it was made for a Medium critter). If I inturrpret the arguments correctly, a human using this style of pocket knife would not accrue a penalty, provided he is proficient with simple weapons, and it was made for a Medium creature.

Don't forget, you left out half of that paragraph. The above I added to help further my arguement.

How short does a small shortsword grip have to be? By your example, the average hand of a 3 year old is about 10.5 cm. That's just over 4 " (30 cm in a foot, 3' 4" in a meter [100 cm]). Average hand width for an adult (small creatures are fully developed by this time, unless WotC figures small creature dimensions diffenetly) is 2/3 the length per art and anatomy teachings. That puts the width at roughly 2 1/2", closer to 2 2/3". Add enough room for hand variance and grip manipulation (few weapons use a baseball style grip) and you have a handle with a length of 2 3/4 to 3 inches, being conservative. We can assume the the width would be about a 1/2", MAYBE less. I have described a real life stilletto weapon (piercing, mind you) with a 1/2 inch wide 4" long handle, made for humans. Is that extra 1 1/4 inch of length so devastating as to accrue a -2 penalty for a halfling? Can a creature capable of lifting 60 lbs be so thrown off by that extra ounce or so of metal? Why can a human wield a pocket knife or stilletto with comparable dimensions with no penalty but suffers a -2 penalty when using a Small weapon with the exact same dimensions?

There as examples of work knives with 3" handles existing in the medival era, as well as viking villages (they did have a home port, you know...). These are made for a Medium creatures. Do these weapons gain a -2 to hit? Are they improvised weapons? Or do Medium creatures use them without penaly...

(Check reports of bar fights if you believe these are rediculous examples. People have even used box cutters and the razor blades for said cutters without the handle. Also remember, we carry pocket knives for much the same reason they carry daggers: it's an effective tool and weapon in a crunch. They're also easily hidden).

Last arguement, and I'm out (for real this time): Why does it take magic or hundreds of manhours worth of work to give a weapon a +1 to hit, but the variances in a medium dagger and a small shortsword accrue a -2 to -6, per Hypersmurf? Remember, daggers made for combat are not made to be thrown (for those who use the range increment for their rebuttal).Those beings that can throw them have trained themselves to adjust their grip and release point to accommadate the weight (halflings are very good at this, per their +1 bonus to hit with thrown weapons).

If humans and small folk can do this at range, in combat, with their respective daggers or hand axes (weapons not designed to be thrown are being used against moving, armored targets), why is this weight adjustment with similar melee weapons (small short sword to dagger, etc) so different or difficult?

 

[ashfallen]

OK, so the physics of weapon sizing are somewhat debatable. I don't think that's the point, though, because PCs (like goblins) rarely have weapons made to fit their exact personal grip and arm-length. Instead, they use what they find, if it's better (ie, more enchanted) than what they have. Sizing individual weapons overcomplicates what is already an overcomplicated game. I don't need or want another layer of stuffing about with inventories. Character sheet accountancy distracts from roleplaying.

My preference as DM is to dispense with the whole issue and rule that all weapons be given their Size M damage code at all times. A dagger is a dagger whether a pixie wields it or an ogre does, and in either case it does d4 damage. There is already a mechanism for greater or less damage for larger or smaller creatures: the strength bonus.

The mechanism for controlling silliness in weapon choice is the same as for everything else: intelligent players, and DM guidance. If it doesn't make physical sense for the creature to be able to wield the weapon, then it can't and doesn't. If it can, but it's inconvenient, it gets a -2 circumstance penalty in addition to any relevant non-proficiency penalty. This is likely to be because of an emergency, like having its weapon sundered and been forced to pick up it's larger buddy's weapon. If it survives the emergency and gets the opportunity, it will sell or trade the inconvenient weapon away.

For example, my players have the expectation that normal goblins will wield weapons that do about d6 damage, and beyond that, don't much care. It's a short sword or a spiked club or something. If for some reason it matters exactly what a goblin's weapon is (or a player wants to know), I'll decide. If I want a squad of well-armed goblins, I'll give them long swords and upgrade their damage to d8+1.5xStr bonus, and I will say, "These goblins are well-armed, each one having a long sword which it wields two-handed."

 

[Hypersmurf]

My preference as DM is to dispense with the whole issue and rule that all weapons be given their Size M damage code at all times.

What do your titans and fire giants use?

-Hyp.

 

[Storyteller01]

OK, so the physics of weapon sizing are somewhat debatable. I don't think that's the point, though...

Agreed, but the RAW doesn't back my arguement, and ancedotal evidence gets thrown out...

Got to use what I know...

 

[ashfallen]

What do your titans and fire giants use?

-Hyp.

A fire giant uses an enormous greatsword or great axe the size of itself, which does 3d6 damage, and that a PC smaller than Large can't effectively use because of common sense. A titan, as it says in the MM description, wields a hammer big enough for a gargantuan creature although it personally is merely huge. Such a hammer does 1d8 at size M, so that's 4d6 at size G according to the sizing-up table on p28 of the DMG. PCs can't effectively use this hammer either, although a group of four of them might be able to pick it up and ram a gate with it.

Worrying about whether a weapon is a small greatsword or a large dagger is tedious. What does it achieve? All I see it doing is increasing the probability of you telling a player "you can't use that", which means PCs use less found equipment and will sell the found equipment and commission items instead. It's a stylistic choice, that's all.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Such a hammer does 1d8 at size M, so that's 4d6 at size G according to the sizing-up table on p28 of the DMG.

So when you say you rule that "all weapons be given their Size M damage code at all times", what you mean is you rule that "most weapons be given their Size M damage code, except when they aren't Size M"?

Basically, you're using the 3E system

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus]

I could only get through 3 pages of this subject before I just "had" to chime in. So I apologize if this has been stated already...

My main problem with the 3.5 weapon size system is when it comes to Reach weapons. Take a look at the Spiked Chain. A Spiked Chain has a 10' reach and does 2d4 damage. A small sized Spiked Chain does 1d6 damage but ALSO has a 10' reach. How does that make sense?

Also, if I wanted to make a super cheesy character, I could make a medium sized Fighter, take EWP: Spiked Chain, then use a small-sized Spike Chain and combine that w/ either a Shield or even dual wield 2 small-sized Spike Chains. A -2 to hit is NOT that big a deal for a Fighter. Especially since they can offset it with feats like Weapon Focus.