Hello,
I'm curious to get people's take on this issue. It's not 4ed specific, but being that I'm going to be running some more 4ed encounters, that will be the context I'm apply the ideas to.
So firstly, I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person (frankly I consider most gamers a cut above). So the question is, what's the best solution to running stupid monsters.
Let's use the Irontooth Encounter from KotS as an example:
So my players waded through the first part rather quickly, but as they moved inside they got pinned down rather badly. Also I had the minions whom were close to the two side entrances double back and surround the PCs. Needless to say it was a TPK after Irontooth became bloodied, and rolled no less than a 8 on his extra damage.
Now, my question is, should a Kobold whom has a reasonably low intelligence have the ability to think tactically in a fight? While they may not be able to read "War and Peace", or do a NY Times crossword, it seems reasonable to assume that they would know how to handle themselves in a fight.
The whole situation made me think about the concept as a whole. What do folks do to adjust tactically running monsters. On one hand I want every monster to be considered a threat, but Intelligence should have some play into this.
What do my fellow DMs do? How do you use monster Intelligence to affect tactics? This is less of a specific question, and more an open thread. I'm curious to hear the results.
I think it's sometimes more in the nature of the creature than it's intelligence. Kobolds, existing for generations as one of the smaller monster races, competing for space with stronger and more agressive races, will by nature have developed some pretty scary tactics to survive.
Look at it this way: I have a chipmonk living under my shed. I like to think that I am smarter than a chipmonk, but still he manages to thwart my efforts to displace him at every turn.
I've never let a TPK end a campaign. It's ended a half-dozen parties but never a campaign.
What does seem to end campaigns is having half the party die, the other half wander away from the quest, and then the players (or me) be unable to meet for any sort of regularly scheduled gaming for a few months.
The Irontooth encounter is typically done when the party is level 1. It's encounter appropriate for a level 3 or 4 party. Since kobolds move faster than PCs, they shouldn't even be able to run away. If it's not a TPK at level 1, either the DM is doing something wrong, or the PCs were lucky enough to bring the town guard with them.
The Irontooth encounter is typically done when the party is level 1. It's encounter appropriate for a level 3 or 4 party. Since kobolds move faster than PCs, they shouldn't even be able to run away. If it's not a TPK at level 1, either the DM is doing something wrong, or the PCs were lucky enough to bring the town guard with them.
The Irontooth encounter is typically done when the party is level 1. It's encounter appropriate for a level 3 or 4 party. Since kobolds move faster than PCs, they shouldn't even be able to run away. If it's not a TPK at level 1, either the DM is doing something wrong, or the PCs were lucky enough to bring the town guard with them.
One of my groups ended up taking both the outside of the lair and the inside without even a short rest in-between. Not only did they survive (albeit barely), but they killed every single one of their opponents.
It's not that it's a level 4 encounter (just talking the inside, here), it's really two level 2 encounters back-to-back given how it's set up in waves, which is imminently more survivable.
It's not that it's a level 4 encounter (just talking the inside, here), it's really two level 2 encounters back-to-back given how it's set up in waves, which is imminently more survivable.
The inside is level 6, the outside is level 1. It's equivalent to the final encounter in the adventure for which the party is supposed to be 3rd level, and I think it may be underleveled at 6 (the outside should really be 2 as well.) Irontooth's HPs and expected damage are are pretty comparable to the final boss once you add on his regeneration and magic armour.
As for the two waves, I played the kobolds stupid and had them attack and it was still a TPK. If they were of anything but rock stupid the first wave would have withdrawn to Irontooth or used the other exit to surround and assist Irontooth because if PCs have gotten into the lair it means all their kobold buddies outside got killed without even being able to flee inside and give a warning! Kobolds aren't stupid, they know that means they're about to die and charging the PCs is the exact WRONG thing for them to do.
The inside is level 6, the outside is level 1. It's equivalent to the final encounter in the adventure for which the party is supposed to be 3rd level, and I think it may be underleveled at 6 (the outside should really be 2 as well.) Irontooth's HPs and expected damage are are pretty comparable to the final boss once you add on his regeneration and magic armour.
As for the two waves, I played the kobolds stupid and had them attack and it was still a TPK. If they were of anything but rock stupid the first wave would have withdrawn to Irontooth or used the other exit to surround and assist Irontooth because if PCs have gotten into the lair it means all their kobold buddies outside got killed without even being able to flee inside and give a warning! Kobolds aren't stupid, they know that means they're about to die and charging the PCs is the exact WRONG thing for them to do.
Essentially what happened when I ran was the slinger realized that the outside defenses got toasted in 2 rounds, so it ran in to warn the insiders. The party thought they had more time to catch him, and essentially ran right into quite the fight. While Irontooth is bad ass, the Wyrmpriest was also equally effective.
I played the Irontooth encounter monsters smart, but made certain to describe the foes as very deadly, especially Irontooth. They got the hint and ran, and suffered one casualty, who will come back as an undead villain. Old Irontooth is now hated and feared, and will return later...fun stuff.
Making the PC's run away is a good thing, once in a while.
I think the trick to the kobold lair assault is to attack the first time, and retreat once Irontooth comes out. You should have destroyed almost all of his minions and flunkies.Then have an extended rest, and come back and focus fire on Irontooth and his wyrmpriest. I think the TPKs come out when people try to take on Irontooth with just their at-wills and the dregs of their encounter powers.
In response to the OP - these creatures only have two or three powers apiece. Even a complete idiot can learn to do two or three things effectively, and beast-level intelligences that live only to hunt and eat and generally survive rely on their powers to sustain them, and as a result should know how to use them.
Co-ordinating a plan that involves using several different elements together (for example - shooters at the back of the formation, hitters at the front) does require above-10 intelligence in my opinion, but just using the abilities you yourself possess effectively doesn't really require any at all.
I fretted over this encounter for an age, should I play the Kobold's dumb, should I stagger their attacks, should I drop Irontooth's hit points- especially as this was the Player's first attempt at 4e and they hate it (absolutely hate it) when their characters die (they get very attached very quickly).
Oh and we are also playing using RPTools and only had the module guide in the way of rules, which less than half of them had read.
And they don't seem to talk to each other about their characters capabilities, certainly not when their playing 3x.
So I played it as written, I had to really.
Yeah, you guessed it- the players wiped the floor with Irontooth and his gang, I even had to bring the second wave in early.
Burning Hands wiped out a mass of them, the Rogue made mincemeat of the remaing skirmishers, and Dragonshields (even with good use of their shift ability) flank and move, in combo with the Paladin and the Fighter.
Irontooth took an age, and wiped the Cleric and Paladin clean out of Healing, the Rogue was down to single digits HP, as was the Fighter- the Paladin was 2 HP of max and the Wizard and Cleric emerged unscathed.
I don't remember the dice being in the players favour (actually RPTools was generating the numbers), they seemed to take the Wyrmpriest down quickly but that's because they'd already met one in the second ambush and had suffered for it.
If I'd ascribe it to anything I'd say good initiative rolls for the players and a Burning Hands spell that cleared the way for them to make five attacks before almost all of the Kobolds got to do anything, I think the only Kobolds that got an attack before any of the PCs were the Dragonshields.
I was dumbfounded, I promise I played Irontooth like a real bastard- no foolishness from any of his gang either, I'd had a week or so more to learn the rules, and read about all the TPKs at this point, secretly I was looking forward to the opportunity, I've been DMing for 25 years and I don't do TPKs, I'm a story guy- I thought this was my big chance.
I did TPK the first party that ran through KTOS but that was in the second ambush, they've vowed (foolishly) never to play 4e again.
