Smart DM, Stupid Monsters (possible KotS spoilers)

[James McMurray]

It kinda got lost in the flow, or perhaps was in the other copy of this thread, but my response is "how does the Int 8 - 10 fighter handle tactics?" The players can be your guide for how to do this. If the fighter in question counts squares, uses the best tactics for the moment, and otherwise optimizes his combat strategies, your Int 8+ monsters should do the same. If he roleplays it and consciously makes stupid mistakes because of his lower intelligence, so should you.

If nobody in your group has played the stupid but otherwise badass archetypical fighter, giving them an NPC friend who they take turns controlling in combat might be helpful.

In our group we've got a bunch of tactical players who also try to avoid OOC information intruding into the game. This means we have a lot of situations where Dimbulb, half-orc fight, will sometimes seem to be a brilliant master of small unit tactics. Then the player will catch himself and forcibly make a big blunder to counteract it. Luckily, I'm also tactical but OOC-shy, so I tend to do the same thing when I GM. If I wasn't though, I'd definitely aim to strike the same sort of balance that the players do, making all the right moves for a while, then having it crumble down because of something foolish.

In the end, whichever interpretation is happening on one side of the screen should be happening on the other. If you're cool with low intelligence PCs being good at their jobs, it's ok to do the same with the NPCx. If you want everyone to constantly manage their reactions vs. their character's intellect, be sure to enforce it on both yourself and the players.

 

[KarinsDad]

TPK here too, i couldnt stop laughing (im DMing)

TPK here as well. We stopped the combat when there were only 2 PCs remaining (and surrounded).


One player was a bit annoyed at the Wyrmpriest giving many of the minions temporary hit points. He thought it defeated the entire purpose of using minions.

As DM, I thought it a tactic that the Wyrmpriest would use every single time. And on the map, he was more or less standing real close to where the first battle took place.


I am a bit bothered by how WotC wrote up that part of the adventure. If kobolds are 30 or 50 or 70 feet away, why would they sit there and wait until the first battle is finished before showing up. That is totally nonsensical, but seems to be a bit of a norm in new WotC thinking.

Like City of Heroes or City of Villains, the enemies 50 feet away ignore the fact that you are beating the snot out of their allies. WT? I can understand it for CoV, but not DND.

That, quite frankly, is videogamey.


I think DMs have to seriously look at NOT having encounters too close to each other physically for 4E. It's real easy for a PC to retreat a bit and pull in another encounter group if the DM runs encounter group #2 plausibly and does not have them all standing around with their fingers in their ears going "la la la la la la, I don't see you".

 

[Infiniti2000]

As DM, I thought it a tactic that the Wyrmpriest would use every single time. And on the map, he was more or less standing real close to where the first battle took place.

What do you mean, every single time? Did he survive for a second encounter? Also, keep in mind that it's a burst, which doesn't go around corners in 4e either (you need line of effect). Given the layout of that dungeon, it's quite possible that a lot of minions will not get affected, especially if the wyrmpriest holds off until he can also cover Irontooth, which he should do.

I am a bit bothered by how WotC wrote up that part of the adventure. If kobolds are 30 or 50 or 70 feet away, why would they sit there and wait until the first battle is finished before showing up. That is totally nonsensical, but seems to be a bit of a norm in new WotC thinking.

It seems obvious that the designer intended that you can't hear anything from the outside. Otherwise, there would not be the stipulation of the warning.

Like City of Heroes or City of Villains, the enemies 50 feet away ignore the fact that you are beating the snot out of their allies. WT? I can understand it for CoV, but not DND.

Waterfalls are quite loud. It is definitely realistic to say that you cannot hear anything outside of the lair, regardless of any checks. Additionally, the entrance to the lair is concealed, so it's also likely the interior kobolds can't see outside. I suppose it would be best to just say that, but sometimes you have to use the clues to justify the design of the module.

 

[Regicide]

Waterfalls are quite loud. It is definitely realistic to say that you cannot hear anything outside of the lair, regardless of any checks.

No, but it's sensible that the kobolds, on discovering intruders, would run to their leader and alert them. They know the dozen or so kobolds outside are probably dead at this point.

The two wave thing is very MMORPG. The entire encounter is horrible. A level 6 encounter for a level 1 party... and an introductory adventure at that! The lord of the town even assures the party they can handle the kobolds. It's like... railroad to TPK. What a pile of crap.

 

[KarinsDad]

Given the layout of that dungeon, it's quite possible that a lot of minions will not get affected, especially if the wyrmpriest holds off until he can also cover Irontooth, which he should do.

Why should he do that? Protect your leader who isn't there yet, or protect a whole group of followers who are fighting intruders? Even the useage (up to 10 kobolds) and name of the power "Incite Faith" implies it should be used on an allied group.

I disagree with your assertion here. That sounds like the opposite of the intent of the power.

It seems obvious that the designer intended that you can't hear anything from the outside. Otherwise, there would not be the stipulation of the warning.

Waterfalls are quite loud. It is definitely realistic to say that you cannot hear anything outside of the lair, regardless of any checks. Additionally, the entrance to the lair is concealed, so it's also likely the interior kobolds can't see outside. I suppose it would be best to just say that, but sometimes you have to use the clues to justify the design of the module.

I'm not talking about outside.

I'm talking about inside. The PCs wiped out all but one of the outside guys (one got away) and nobody inside knew about it until that one warned them.

Wyrmpriest and the two Dragonshields are illustrated as within 20 to 25 feet of the torch that lights up the entire entrance area.

In our campaign, one of the outside guys got away and ran into the lair. He rushed to Wyrmpriest and told him about intruders. Wyrmpriest sent one of the Dragonshields to warn Irontooth.

The PCs crept in shortly thereafter (being slow and cautious, they gave the kobolds time to prepare a little, however, they did not take a 5 minute rest which ended up with the Warlock having used 2 encounter powers outside and not having them for the big fight) and had those two rooms of bad guys (plus the one who rushed in) for a total of 12 enemies (which I sent at them 4 at a time for 3 rounds).

They mostly fought in that intersection by the torch and Wyrmpriest moved near the other torch 10 feet away and that is why his burst got a good percentage of the minions (several of which had moved around to that side of the cave and were using javelins, so they were in the larger cave with Wyrmpriest).

Irontooth and the other 4 on the other end of the cave system grabbed weapons and rushed outside. Seeing the dead kobolds, they traveled around and came at the PCs from behind (which I had take 5 rounds).


Now, I deviated some from the first wave / second wave text, but that can happen with any scenario. The text was stupid. It implied that the entire left hand group (including the ones 80+ feet away behind two walls) would fight the PCs while the 3 on the right hand side 25 feet away and in plain sight would just stand there with their thumbs up their butts.

It really is like playing CoV the way that wave text was written.

And, even gradually adding enemies like I did, the PCs were still outclassed. They used a daily power and an encounter power on Irontooth, hit with both (one was a crit), and still did not even bloody him.


It's obvious (to me at least) that having an encounter 5 levels above the PCs is doomed to PC failure the vast majority of the time, regardless of the DMG "more than 7 level above is too hard" claim. There are just too many variables and it's too easy for the PCs to blow through good encounter and daily powers without a large effect in an encounter 5 levels above.

Personally, I would limit it to +/- 3 levels. Even the recent podcast of 2 levels higher had the PCs running away.

People are used to playing DND where the PCs generally triumph, but I suspect that 4E higher than the PC level encounters will result in either many TPKs, or many run aways (possibly leaving one or two PCs behind on the ground).

 

[ladycass]

For me this is a mix. Yes unintelligent monster will use some tactics. After all there is a certian instinct driven animal behavior that all hostile/predators should have. On the other hand they are more likly to get excited/angry/scared and do something that poses tactical disadvantage. They may take the most direct route out of combat, go after an enemy they have no chance against ect.