Sneak Attack and TWF question

[Scion]

So you are saying that being surprised by an opponent suddenly appearing (from around a corner) is so different from being surprised by an opponent suddenly appearing (right next to you) that it creates two completely contradictory situations and this isnt strange or interesting?

hmm..

 

[Jdvn1]

Mind you, I'm discussing RAW, not 'what makes sense'. They're not always the same.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I see nothing contradictory. Instead, I see confusion on how to handle the surprise round, or perhaps giving a surprise round when there isn't one. If two opponents come around the corner, there's no surprise round only initiative. If one opponent planned an ambush, however (a legitimate surprise round), then that opponent would get an attack on the surprise round and then a full attack on the first real round. Assuming he wins initiative, all of those attacks are sneak attacks. If he were invisible, then he would get all sneak attacks as well. If the surprise was due to invisibility, then it would be just like the ambush.

Less confusing now, I hope?

 

[Simplicity]

The only time you get a sneak attack for 'surprising' your opponent is in the Surprise Round.

That's actually quite definitely not true.

You get a sneak attack in the surprise round, but if you then go before the person in initiative in a NORMAL round (i.e. not the one surprise round), they are still flatfooted until their turn. Essentially in the surprise situation, reacting to someone (and thus regaining the Dex bonus) is treated like a free action. Why would the invisibility situation be different?

 

[Jdvn1]

That's actually quite definitely not true.

You get a sneak attack in the surprise round, but if you then go before the person in initiative in a NORMAL round (i.e. not the one surprise round), they are still flatfooted until their turn. Essentially in the surprise situation, reacting to someone (and thus regaining the Dex bonus) is treated like a free action. Why would the invisibility situation be different?

Ah, true. The surprise round and also the first round, assuming you go first.

Invisibility is different because the rules handle it differently. Once you've acted in a combat, it's assumed you're aware and looking around you and you're ready for stuff. That's why Greater Invisibility is useful for Rogues.

 

[mikebr99]

That's actually quite definitely not true.

You get a sneak attack in the surprise round, but if you then go before the person in initiative in a NORMAL round (i.e. not the one surprise round), they are still flatfooted until their turn. Essentially in the surprise situation, reacting to someone (and thus regaining the Dex bonus) is treated like a free action. Why would the invisibility situation be different?

Again... it's the flat-footed condition that is the driver, not invisibility.

Once you are no longer flat-footed, you are almost immediately able to react to any situation... after the 1st attack, and the attacker becomes visible, you can dodge.


Mike

 

[bodhi]

That's actually quite definitely not true.

You get a sneak attack in the surprise round, but if you then go before the person in initiative in a NORMAL round (i.e. not the one surprise round), they are still flatfooted until their turn. Essentially in the surprise situation, reacting to someone (and thus regaining the Dex bonus) is treated like a free action. Why would the invisibility situation be different?

You apply sneak attack damage when an opponent is either denied a dex bonus to AC, or flanked.

Everyone starts flat-footed. If you are aware and your opponent is unaware, you get a suprise round; you are not flat-footed while your opponent remains so. So, if you use invisibility to get the surprise round, you get sneak attack damage A) on your first attack, and B) if you win initiative, on a full attack in the first regular round. Then your opponent acts, and is no longer flat-footed. In this case, your opponent is denied his dex bonus for two reasons: his being flat-footed, and your being invisible. When you become visible after your first attack, he is still flat-footed, so still denied his dex bonus.

However, if combat has already begun, and no combatant is flat-footed, then you only get sneak attack damage while you deny your opponent his dex bonus, which is only while you are invisible. Your first attack negates the invisibility, so you no longer deny the dex bonus, so you no longer inflict sneak attack damage.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

So, a person could surprise someone, move up, beat them in initiative and take a full round of sneak attacks on someone because they are still flatfooted.

But, if you make the mistake of being invisible first then you cannot make the full round of sneak attacks?

Interesting.

I always figured it to be like this: Before combat starts, you're not "combat ready". You're literally flat-footed, you stand there in a casual stance, the rush of adrenaline has not kicked in yet, you need a moment to realize what's going on now, and are still a little slow to react.

Once combat has started, though, you are alert. An invisible enemy can sneak up on you and stab you in the boat and you react fast enough to deny him more underhanded attacks, since his advantage just evaporated.

 

[BSF]

You also get sneak attack in combat if you are flanking your opponent. Hence, if youa re using standard invisibility, it is a good idea to move to a flanking position if possible.

 

[Scion]

I always figured it to be like this: Before combat starts, you're not "combat ready". You're literally flat-footed, you stand there in a casual stance, the rush of adrenaline has not kicked in yet, you need a moment to realize what's going on now, and are still a little slow to react.

Once combat has started, though, you are alert. An invisible enemy can sneak up on you and stab you in the boat and you react fast enough to deny him more underhanded attacks, since his advantage just evaporated.

While I can see where you are coming from I disagree about the overall interpretation.

Especially since it could easily be that you were just in combat a few moments ago, or you might be walking through a dangerous place expecting trouble, or who knows what else. Adventurers tend to be made of sterner stuff.

Getting jumped by someone you didnt know was there, either way, should provide similar results.

In the d&d land it can be said that it doesnt. Even though to an outside observer the two situations look effectively the same.

And I find it very strange indeed.