Sneak Attack and TWF question

[Crothian]

It is two differnet situtations. Player A invisible, polayer B not invisible. Both are rogues.

Both attack a non flatfooted opponent: Player A gets sneak attack for one attack becasue he is invisible but the rest of his attacks are normal becasue he is not invisible for them. Player B get all normal attacks since he is not invisible.

Both attack a flatfooted opponent: Both get sneak attack on all their attacks because of the flat footed ness. Being invisible or not doesn't help in the situation.

Now, a DM can rule that a target of an invisible attack is not prepared for it and is flatfooted the whole round against it using Rule 0.

 

[irdeggman]

Alright I think here is the applicable info from the SRD:

Basically a character (depending on class ability, like a rogue) can make a sneak attack whenever his target is denied a Dex bonus to AC or when the attacker flanks the opponent.

Note this does not say surprised nor if the attacker is invisible. An invisible attacker denies his opponent his Dex mod to AC (see the combat modifier table) as long as he is invisible.

When the invisible character makes his attack he becomes visible. Note this is not a successful attack just the act of attacking – e.g., making the very first attack out of a series.

Anytime a rogue can get his opponent flanked or denied his Dex bonus to AC he gets the benefits of sneak attack. This can work if the rogue is feinting in combat (i.e., using the Bluff skill as well).

During a surprise round a character can only make a standard action. He can not make more than one attack since this is a full round action (i.e., full attack).

Notice also the issue with uncanny dodge ability which prevents a character from losing his Dex bonus to AC when flatfooted. (but only when flat footed if I read it correctly).

Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.


Invisibility

Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle). The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.


Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed.

A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.


SURPRISE
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.


COMBAT MODIFIERS

FAVORABLE AND UNFAVORABLE CONDITIONS

Table: Attack Roll Modifiers
Attacker is . . . Melee Ranged
Invisible +22 +22

2 The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC. This bonus doesn’t apply if the target is blinded.


BLUFF (CHA)
Check: A Bluff check is opposed by the target’s Sense Motive check. See the accompanying table for examples of different kinds of bluffs and the modifier to the target’s Sense Motive check for each one.

Favorable and unfavorable circumstances weigh heavily on the outcome of a bluff. Two circumstances can weigh against you: The bluff is hard to believe, or the action that the target is asked to take goes against its self-interest, nature, personality, orders, or the like. If it’s important, you can distinguish between a bluff that fails because the target doesn’t believe it and one that fails because it just asks too much of the target. For instance, if the target gets a +10 bonus on its Sense Motive check because the bluff demands something risky, and the Sense Motive check succeeds by 10 or less, then the target didn’t so much see through the bluff as prove reluctant to go along with it. A target that succeeds by 11 or more has seen through the bluff.

A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell.

A bluff requires interaction between you and the target. Creatures unaware of you cannot be bluffed.

Feinting in Combat: You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.

If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

 

[sam500]

Alright.
Thanks for the help everyone.
I think I understand now.
I'm in the camp of the first attack gets sneak attack and the rest of the attacks do not.

This makes "RAW" sense as well as intuitive sense for me.
If a character is already in combat his senses will be at their peak detecting any potential dangers. Thus if an invisible character suddenly became visible to him he would react to the new threat accordingly hence regaining his dex bonus back.
If I were to rule on the flat-footed effect, I would say this would only apply before combat begins as the character was not aware that his super senses would be needed for combat at the time of the attack.

Thanks again.
Yours,
Sam

 

[ForceUser]

My interpretation is that the ability to sneak attack goes away as soon as invisibility ends with the first attack.

I agree, unless there is another condition present that denies the target his Dex modifier (such as moving invisibly to a flanking position, then making a full attack).

 

[Hypersmurf]

I agree, unless there is another condition present that denies the target his Dex modifier (such as moving invisibly to a flanking position, then making a full attack).

While your example does allow sneak attack with all attacks in the full attack, flanking is not 'another condition present that denies the target his Dex modifier'

-Hyp.

 

[ForceUser]

While your example does allow sneak attack with all attacks in the full attack, flanking is not 'another condition present that denies the target his Dex modifier'

-Hyp.

You and your "accurate microanalyses of rules fine points." Pshaw!

 

[dcollins]

(cough)

 

[ZuulMoG]

Seems like attacking with a weapon while invisible is stupid in the extreme if a rogue has multiple attacks.

His best bet for the invisible attack is flour in the eyes, a ranged touch attack that's basically guaranteed to hit, followed with a full attack the next round against his blinded, and soon deceased, opponent.

 

[dcollins]

There's a DM that allows blinding with a ranged touch attack using flour?

 

[Jack Simth]

Don't know about flour, but a rouge could also UMD a wand of Color Spray, Blindness/Deafness, Glitterdust, Pyrotechnics (You did bring a torch, right?), or Holy Smite; perhaps a scroll/staff of the higher level blinding effects.