Sneak Attack as a Feat

[GuardianLurker]

Again, as I said earlier, 3e models "carefully placed shots" (or called shots against specific parts of the body) through the sneak attack ability.

The question was "Is there any way to make this ability (called shots) available to other classes without unbalancing the game/weakening the rogue unacceptably?"

The general answer seems to be a resounding NO, that the sneak attack ability (and thus the ability to make this form of called shot) is so integral to the rogue (and the rogue-like prestige classes), that no other class should be permitted it, that the ONLY way to acquire this ability is through multi-classing.

Which is fine - I guess I'm just a little disappointed that there's no other reason than "rogues must retain this privilege". Can anyone offer any other?

 

[Jeph]

How bout this for your called shots . . .

Precise Attack [General]
You can strike precisely at vulnerable targets.
Prerequisites: Int 13+, Expertise, BAB +4
Benefit: Whenever you make an attack against an opponent that is flanked or denied their Dexterity bonus to AC, you gain a +1 bonus to that attack roll, and a +1 bonus to the critical range of the weapon with which you made the attack for the purposes of that attack only. This ability has all the same limitations as the Rogue's Sneak Attack ability.

 

[Chacal]

Yeah, of course, he'd have to spend *all* his feats on Sneak Attack to do that, which is a fairly hefty price.

I still don't like the 2-flanking fighters with 3D6 sneakattack combo at 1st level but YMMV.

The problem is that this progression is *slower* than the current sneak attack progression for rogues, and one of my goals is to avoid weakening the rogue classes.

Oops, I wasn't very clear. My suggestion was about giving the Sneak attack feat to everyone, and letting the rogue keep its regular sneak attack progression.

At each odd level of rogue, it would either take a +1D6 to its Sneak attack, or take an ability of its choice in a limited list. It could also take the "new" sneak attack feat with regular feats though.

Sorry for the confusion.


Chacal

 

[GuardianLurker]

Not bad as a "called shot" feat would go.

Unhappily, it's different enough from sneak attack to not be the answer.

3e has three main (possibly four) mechanics for replicating "called shots".

For "lucky shots" - those strange occurences that reveal momentary vulnerabilities and that are taken advantage of - you have the critical (along with keen and improved critical). This is the mechanic your proposed feat uses.

For "trick shots" - pick a feat; Improved Trip, Improved Disarm. Or how about Strike A Weapon and the Base Disarm. I suppose we could also include Hamstring from Song and Silence in here as well.

For "carefully placed shots" - what most people think of when they think of "called shots" - we have the sneak attack (and Dirty Fighting).

To replicate the carefully placed shot, any feat would have to offer : some mechanism to replicate the care/focus (In sneak attack this is the "flatfoot/flank" req) in choosing the placement. And extra damage that *always* occurs if the blow lands (since choosing the same area should result in the same extra damage). The feat also needs to either stack or chain to correctly model the different "values" of the vital areas.

The problem with a feat chain is that we would be left begging the question "What's the rogue attacking when his sneak attack does more damage than the top-most feat in the chain?"

The problem with a stacking feat is that we have to be careful to avoid having the non-rogues out-strip the rogues.

If we don't allow others to acquire this feat, what is our in-game rationale for disallowing it? After all, all characters can already duplicate every other form of "called shot" I've listed (and I think the list is complete, but I'd be interested in hearing of more).

BTW, the fourth mechanic is Power Attack's "overwhelming blow", which actually uses the old 1e/2e "penalty to AC" called shot mechanic to model something else that may or may not be a called shot.

Oh, and this is *completely* tangential - is it possible for a rogue to choose to do *less* than the maximum sneak attack damage? Could a rogue with a +4d6 sneak attack only choose to do a +1d6 sneak attack?

 

[LostSoul]

I did something similar, but I used Search and Spot requirements. This gives an edge to Rogues and... Rangers! I thought that was cool.

Here's the feat:

Sneak Attack I
You are skilled at making Sneak Attacks.
Prerequisite: Dex13+, Search: 4 ranks, Spot: 4 ranks.
Benefit: Any time your target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when you flank the target, your attack deals 1d6 extra damage. Should the sneak attack be a critical hit, this extra damage is not multiplied. Sneak attack only works if you are wearing light or no armour.

Ranged attacks can only count as sneak attacks if the target is within 30 feet. You can't strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, you can make a sneak attack that deals subdual damage instead of normal damage. You cannot use a weapon that deals normal damage to deal subdual damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

You can only sneak attack a living creature with a discernible anatomy. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also not vulnerable to sneak attacks. You must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach a vital spot. You cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Sneak Attack II
You are skilled at making Sneak Attacks.
Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Search: 6 ranks, Spot: 6 ranks, Sneak Attack I.
Benefit: As Sneak Attack I, but extra damage raised by +1d6. This damage stacks with the damage from other Sneak Attack Feats.


The other Sneak Attacks follow the same progression.

Then I did some checking to see what it would be like if a Fighter wanted to take Sneak Attack. This is what I came up with:

Rog1-Fgt9: Atk +13/+8 (1-8+5 longsword). Sneak Attack +4d6. Feats: Improved Init, Dodge, Sneak Attack I-IV, Weapon Focus: Longsword, Mobility, Weapon Spec: Longsword, Spring Attack, Power Attack.

Although, now that I think about it, that Rog1-Fgt9 would work better with a level of Ranger.

Oh yeah, there is an extra Feat in there because I changed all the Rogue's special abilities into Feats, and gave the Rogue a Bonus Feat list.

 

[GuardianLurker]

I did something similar, but I used Search and Spot requirements. This gives an edge to Rogues and... Rangers! I thought that was cool.

Heh. That's kind-of-neat; it also benefits Experts. And it suggests a pretty good change for my feats. To wit (changes in italics):

Sneak Attack [General]
Prerequisites : Weapon Focus, Spot 4 ranks
Benefit :
Any time the target would be denied their Dexterity bonus to AC, or when the character is flanking the target, the character's melee attack deals an extra 1d6 damage. Only living creatures with a discernible anatomy can be sneak attacked. Creatures that are immune to criticals are also not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The character cannot sneak attack targets with concealment, or whose vital areas are out of reach.
Special :
This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, the extra damage increases by 1d6, and the Spot requirement increases by 4. All classes with the sneak attack class ability gain this feat as a bonus feat instead at the same rate. When taken as a bonus feat, the requirements are waived. For example, rogues gain this feat for free at first level and every two levels thereafter.


This cuts the maximum for non-rogues +5d6 at 20th.

How's that?

 

[Xarlen]

How about allowing other classes to take Sneak Attack damage, BUT only doing a d4 of damage? That would let Rogues be the Booyah of Sneak attacking, because not only do they get more sneak attack dice, but also do more damage.

 

[Avatar28]

Heh. That's kind-of-neat; it also benefits Experts. And it suggests a pretty good change for my feats. To wit (changes in italics):

Sneak Attack [General]
Prerequisites : Weapon Focus, Spot 4 ranks
Benefit :
Any time the target would be denied their Dexterity bonus to AC, or when the character is flanking the target, the character's melee attack deals an extra 1d6 damage. Only living creatures with a discernible anatomy can be sneak attacked. Creatures that are immune to criticals are also not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The character cannot sneak attack targets with concealment, or whose vital areas are out of reach.
Special :
This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, the extra damage increases by 1d6, and the Spot requirement increases by 4. All classes with the sneak attack class ability gain this feat as a bonus feat instead at the same rate. When taken as a bonus feat, the requirements are waived. For example, rogues gain this feat for free at first level and every two levels thereafter.


This cuts the maximum for non-rogues +5d6 at 20th.

How's that?

Actually, not even that high. If you figure that spot is a cross-class skill for a lot of classes, that would give you a max at 20th level of 11. So the max would be +2d6.

If you want to do that, you could require +3 BAB for each time it's taken. This would allow a fighter (who SHOULD be more familiar with where to hit someone to cause the most damage since that's what they specialize in) to take it at each feat slot if they wished, but other classes wouldn't be able to. I suppose you could also exempt rogues from the +3 BAB requirement as well.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Actually, not even that high. If you figure that spot is a cross-class skill for a lot of classes, that would give you a max at 20th level of 11. So the max would be +2d6.

True, but there are a number of non-rogue classes (the core ranger and the expert leap immediately to mind) that also have spot as a class skill.* For those classes, the max is +5d6 as stated (and hence the max for all non-rogue classes**). Your figure is correct for classes that have to take Spot as a cross-class skill, however.

This would allow a fighter (who SHOULD be more familiar with where to hit someone to cause the most damage since that's what they specialize in) to take it at each feat slot if they wished, but other classes wouldn't be able to. I suppose you could also exempt rogues from the +3 BAB requirement as well.

Actually the Spot requirement is to take it *away* from fighters, since this would *dramatically* increase their power.

The +4 might be too harsh however. If I drop it to +3 Spot, the max increases to +7d6 (class) or +3d6 (cross-class). In both cases, this is compared to the "free" +10d6 available to a normal 20th Rogue, or the +13d6 if the rogue spent all possible slots on the sneak attack feat.

*Yes, the Expert has too choose Spot as one of its ten class skills to be true.

**A rogue(-like) class is, for the purposes of this discussion, any class or prestige class that normally receives the sneak attack ability.

 

[IndyPendant]

Taken (I think) from the Netbook of Feats:

Improved Sneak Attack [General]
Your sneak attacks are devastating with a particular weapon.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Sneak Attack +2d6 or higher
Benefit: Choose a weapon for which you already have the feat Weapon Focus. Whenever you successfully make a sneak attack with that weapon, your damage is increased by 1d6.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times.

Not perfect, but the best one I've seen yet, including from this post's offerings...

Edit: Oops, originally picked the wrong feat...