Sneak Peek At Ghosts of Saltmarsh Maps

Hussar · Apr 17, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
No, they are shown without a compass rose so they can be used in whatever orientation the DM chooses - if it even matters.

The only person "presuming north is at the top" is you.

You keep changing your own argument. First you say "all", then you said "99%", and now you are saying "most". "Most" I agree with. Loose the hyperbole and your argument becomes much stronger.

Challenge accepted: https://www.paizo.com/starfinder

No, I never said all. That would be easy to disprove since we have a map that isn't oriented north to the top right here. That would be pretty easy to disprove no?

But, again, look at Dyson Logos' patreon, and you'll see that all those maps are linked together as a larger map, oriented north to the top.

What I cannot for the life of me understand is what you're trying to prove. That most maps aren't oriented north to the top? That there isn't a standard in cartography? What?

Look, my only point at the beginning of all this is that it's annoying when artists decide to get cute and orient maps other than standard for no reason. You still have not provided any reason why this specific map needs to be oriented north to the left. You still have not shown that north to the top isn't the standard for cartography. While the Starfinder Flip maps might not be oriented north to the top, since they're meant to be used that way, I'll bet dollars to donuts that Starfinder adventure maps ARE oriented north to the top. That planetary maps, city maps, overland maps, all of them, will be oriented north to the top.

Paul Farquhar · Apr 17, 2019

Hussar said:
No, I never said all. That would be easy to disprove since we have a map that isn't oriented north to the top right here. That would be pretty easy to disprove no?

But, again, look at Dyson Logos' patreon, and you'll see that all those maps are linked together as a larger map, oriented north to the top.

What I cannot for the life of me understand is what you're trying to prove. That most maps aren't oriented north to the top? That there isn't a standard in cartography? What?

Look, my only point at the beginning of all this is that it's annoying when artists decide to get cute and orient maps other than standard for no reason. You still have not provided any reason why this specific map needs to be oriented north to the left. You still have not shown that north to the top isn't the standard for cartography. While the Starfinder Flip maps might not be oriented north to the top, since they're meant to be used that way, I'll bet dollars to donuts that Starfinder adventure maps ARE oriented north to the top. That planetary maps, city maps, overland maps, all of them, will be oriented north to the top.

I'm trying to prove that you are wrecking what could be a perfectly good point with ranting, hyperbole, lack of empathy and ridiculous assertions, like this one: "I'll bet dollars to donuts that Starfinder adventure maps ARE oriented north to the top." Which way is "north" in space???? (and if you want something D&D, try Planescape. Sigil is shaped something like a donut, and few of the planes it connects to have anything that could be described as "north" either.)

Now I have been known to teach Mathematics, and I have noticed that some students find the topic of "Transformations" (translation, reflection, enlargement etc) very easy, whilst others find it extremely difficult, even with aids like cut out shapes and tracing paper. There are few who fall in the middle, and the trend is the same regardless of if it is a top set or a bottom set. So I am perfectly happy to accept that you find reorienting maps difficult. But the converse is also true: there are some (many) for whom it is trivially easy, and it may not occur to them that for some people it isn't.

Hussar · Apr 17, 2019

Whoosh. The sound of a point being missed. Meh.

My point is and always has been, why add a confusing element to a product when there is no reason to.

That you can turn the book is really beside the point.

And, just to add, what ranting or hyperbole? What, that the overwhelming majority of maps, and certainly nearly all RPG maps are drawn north to the top? How is that hyperbole? That's just true. Take a look at a site like cartographersguild.org if you want to see tons of gorgeous (and I do mean gorgeous) fantasy maps. And, again, nearly all of them are oriented north to the top. You want me to say "mostly"? Ok, They are mostly oriented north to the top. Really don't care since the point is, north to the top is pretty much the standard for maps and has been for a couple of hundred years at least.

Plunking down a map in an RPG product that bucks standards for absolutely no reason, is bad design. It's different solely just to be different. It adds nothing to the map and actually does make it (slightly) harder to use. So, again, what is the point of having the map rose orient to the left? What is being gained here?

Is this a major issue? Absolutely not. Is it worth the amount of ink we've gone back and forth here about it? Again, absolutely not.

But, if you're going to accuse me of being unreasonable (ranting and hyperbole) at least have the decency to show any evidence of that. I've been pretty even tempered here. I've presented a mountain of proof - and I can present more if you like. The counter evidence, apparently, is a 40 year old atlas that someone maybe remembers from childhood. :erm:

This is just so pointless.

Well played folks. Well played. I bow to your superior abilities here. A round of applause for everyone. Well done you.

Paul Farquhar · Apr 17, 2019

Hussar said:
My point is and always has been, why add a confusing element to a product when there is no reason to.

And the answer has always been: because they where not aware that it was a confusing element, since they did not themselves find it confusing, and no one had told them it was confusing.

But it appears you would just rather lay into someone, rather than informing them there is a problem so it can be avoided in the future.

But, if you're going to accuse me of being unreasonable (ranting and hyperbole) at least have the decency to show any evidence of that. I've been pretty even tempered here. I've presented a mountain of proof - and I can present more if you like. The counter evidence, apparently, is a 40 year old atlas that someone maybe remembers from childhood. This is just so pointless.

????

I think you have that backwards.

Note: a map without a compass rose is NOT evidence that north is at the top.

You so called evidence seems to be this:

1) North is defined as "the top of the map".

2) 100% of maps have the top at the top.

3) Ergo a map with a compass rose showing north on the right is wrong.

Which is valid logic stemming form a false a priori assumption.

Correct definitions of north:

1) A cardinal point of the compass, lying in the plane of the meridian and to the left of a person facing the rising sun.

2) the direction in which a compass needle normally points.

I can't find any definitions of "north" that mention "the top of a map". (Or definitions of "map" that mention north being at the top for that matter).

Guest 6801328 · Apr 17, 2019

Some gamers are just intolerant of non-traditional orientations.

MNblockhead · Apr 17, 2019

Hussar said:
Time to pee or get off the pot.

I pee from above the pot.

I mean, I agree with you about map orientation, but I'm not about to pee sitting on a pot.

Which does cause me to wonder about medieval chamber-pot etiquette. Medieval wives would have had much more to complain about than their husbands leaving the seat up in the days before potty seats.

This thread on Saltmarsh maps has giving me much more food for thought than I expected.

MNblockhead · Apr 17, 2019

Agreed. I found it interesting that many cultures would have them oriented to the East because that is where the sun rises and were superstitious about not orienting them West, where the sun sets, because that is symbolic of death.

The Chinese apparently always oriented them to North, partly because the Emperor and China needed to be situated on top of vassal Kingdoms, which tend to be more to the south.

Islamic countries often had maps oriented based on the qiblah (towards Mecca).

As far as I know, however, orienting maps North is the current international standard.

lkj said:
I am largely uninterested in the discussion of whether the orientation of a D&D needs to be north or not . I don't mind one way or the other. Other people do mind. Sort of sums the discussion for me.

But it did get me interested in the topic of why maps through history tended to be oriented as they were. I was fascinated to discover that many maps used to have east at the top. And how compasses led to the frequent modern north orientation (as others mentioned in this thread)

So I thought I'd share this interesting web page on the topic

https://geog.ucsb.edu/why-is-north-up-on-maps/

AD

Umbran · Apr 17, 2019

Hey, Farquhar and Hussar, chill the heck out. You are discussing maps in a game about pretending to be elves. There is nothing important enough here to get personal about it all.