sniff sniff...Do I smell 2nd edition mistakes?

[Kae'Yoss]

Compared to 630 billion damage Hulking hurler? Or to divine metamagic persistant (like persistant timestop)? Or to a rogue with a ring of blinking polymorphed into a hydra with a wraithform spell - i.e. 120d6 sneak attack damage a round all touch attacks?
Or a maximized empowered shivering touch dealing 27 dexterity damage no save?
In terms of shoddy design, balance, editing mistakes and art they're no different if not worse.

Were you trying to convince us that D&D is bad or that you are a subscriber to Munchkin Weekly.

2E was not perfect, no edition was perfect. 3rd edition and it's stepchild are worse, by leaps and bounds.
What's the worst you can do with 2nd edition out of curiosity to see if it matches up?

I can create a character that has a 95% chance to hide from ANYONE, whether this is a level one blind stablehand or a 593th-level fighter. I can obtain relatively cheep magic boots that let my steps be absolutely noiseless. I can play a core race with 90% immunity to enchantments.

I can try and play a thief or bard.

Or, alternately, I can try and play a single class fighter in a party with a multi-class elven fighter mage. It's FUN being 10th level in one class when your buddy is 9th level in two, and it only gets MORE FUN as you gain more levels.

Ah yes. I haven't thought of those. I must have suppressed them.

Note, please, that elves (you know, that race that is renowned for their musical talents) cannot be a bard then, and that you have to pull your 9th-level in two classes stunt with a non-human, because they do that differently (you must change your career, and can never return to the old, while non-humans have to divide their attention between their professions equally.). And if you go elf wizard, for example (you know, those guys who live centuries), there will be a time when you cannot advance any further, and since you're no human, you cannot even change the class.

Well the best I can do is a 1st level Drow bladesinger/mage with the wild talent - Disintegrate
in a party of 1st level characters. Okay so he has a 20% xp penalty - for being drow
Or from Darksun - a thrikreen with 19 str = 4 attacks all +4 to hit, +7 damage. I have actually played with the 2nd one in a party. (im just glad his wild talent was nearly useless)

Ah yes. Desintegrate 101. I definetly have suppressed that. Thanks, now I have to go to a shrink to get over it ()

 

[Ranger REG]

2E was not perfect, no edition was perfect. 3rd edition and it's stepchild are worse, by leaps and bounds.

I disagree.

What's the worst you can do with 2nd edition out of curiosity to see if it matches up?

Have a party of mixed kitted PCs and non-kitted PCs.

Dextrous characters can only take Riding, Land-Based NWP. Non-dextrous characters are better off walking. (Nonweapon Proficiency System relies heavily on PC's attributes, not development.)

Human-only Dual-Classing System. (Can never understand why I'm being XP-penalized for using my former class's abilities while I'm advancing my current class.)

 

[Pants]

2005: (14 to date)
Battlefield Adventures
Champions of Ruin Accessory Forgotten Realms
City of Splendors: Waterdeep Accessory Forgotten Realms
Complete Adventurer Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Dungeon Master’s Guide II Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Explorer’s Handbook Accessory Eberron
Five Nations Accessory Eberron
Lords of Madness: The Book of Aberrations Accessory
Lost Empires of Faerûn Accessory Forgotten Realms
Maelstrom Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Races of Eberron Accessory Eberron
Races of the Wild Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Sandstorm Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Weapons of Legacy Accessory Dungeons & Dragons

Wait a minute... didn't TSR release this many products during just a month in their heyday?

 

[Storyteller01]

yep...3.x in infinitly better than 2e. But, with talk about a 4.0, the original problems must not have been solved in their entirety.

If we ARE going to 4.0, then what was it that WotC/the players (we're all equally responsible here) missed the first three times around?

 

[Psion]

Wait a minute... didn't TSR release this many products during just a month in their heyday?

That might be pushing it. Probably about half that. Per month that is. Which makes it about 6x the rate per year.

 

[Psion]

yep...3.x in infinitly better than 2e. But, with talk about a 4.0, the original problems must not have been solved in their entirety.

So long as "you can't please all the people, all the time" is an axiom, people will talk about what they want out of the next edition. And you ask 5 people what they want out of 4e, you'll get 10 different answers.

 

[Maggan]

Talk of 4.0?

yep...3.x in infinitly better than 2e. But, with talk about a 4.0, the original problems must not have been solved in their entirety.

If we ARE going to 4.0, then what was it that WotC/the players (we're all equally responsible here) missed the first three times around?

I would rather say "with rampant speculation on 4.0 by fans and non-fans, wild guesses from no one inside WotC, and totally ignoring what Charles Ryan said..." is somewhat more accurate than "with talk about a 4.0".

Cheers!

Maggan

 

[Pants]

That might be pushing it. Probably about half that. Per month that is. Which makes it about 6x the rate per year.

Whatever happened to that 'big list of products tSR published during its last years' that we had floating around here?

 

[DeadlyUematsu]

Just because it's fun.

All editions of D&D suck. You should be playing RuneQuest.

 

[scourger]

Well, I learned my lessons from 2e; and I just had them reinforced for d20.

Once upon a time, I thought the 2e splatbooks were great. Then, I ran a game with adventures from Dungeon and discovered that none of the foes had splatbooks. When I took my 2e game back to the core, I was much happier; and the players still had a great time.

I applied that lesson to 3.0 and avoided the host of extra books from WotC and other companies. I ran a core D&D game. I didn't (and don't) even use prestige classes. But, I hadn't learned about other genres, yet. So, I bought a lot of d20 games for other genres. A few were great. Some even got played. Most had to find new homes with other gamers. But, even the worst had some (sometimes hidden) pearl of wisdom that makes me a better gamer.

Now, I've completely divested my 2e collection and I'm working on my d20 stuff. For me, the d20 rules are just better all-around; and I'm not going back. (Playing in a 1e game recently has reinforced this notion.) Dungeon has enough d20 adventures to keep me running games indefinitely, and I still pick up the occasional module here and there (I've got 1 on order now and my sights set on another with an April release). So far, I've kept all the adventures, but I could easily part with most of them as well. Only a handful of d20 games in other genres have survived. I consider them to be the best ones, and I am glad that the basic rules set allows easy cross-overs into sci-fi, post-apoc & other genres. I'm even running the Shackled City series of adventures with jedi, judges, muntants & aasimar (paladins) added. This type of crossover was the greatest promise of d20, for me, which I am just now realizing.

If I were to start over with this hobby from scratch right now, I would probably limit it to either a core Star Wars or D&D game--just the basic book(s) and modules. SW is just too cool right now with its minis and the potential crossovers to the RPG. With a SWRPG Revised rulebook and the free adventures for download, I could run an entire campaign. The minis are just a bonus. I bought an entire set of Rebel Storm for the fun of collecting & playing the minis game and just in case I decide to run that RPG game. For D&D, any number of 3rd party setting-adventures would be more than enough with the 3 core books. My favorite right now is Mesopotamia, but there are always others. A little fluff & crunch go a LONG way when paired with some good adventures. I might even give Eberron a try. I really like WotC's strategy of releasing modules for Eberron, and I hope it is successful (despite me not buying any of it yet).

All of this brings me, in a long-winded way, back to the topic of this thread. I don't think WotC is making the same mistakes of AD&D. But, I realize now that I really don't know since I don't buy all that stuff. What I think they should do is publish more adventures. I've heard that adventures don't sell well, but modules are what I'm most interested in buying. I also think modules are what drive sales of other RPG books. For example, the only reason I'm even remotely interested in Eberron is becuase it has some adventure support. In retrospect, I find the same is true for almost all of the RPGs I've played and for all the RPGs I'm still playing. If I were to buy & run Eberron modules, maybe a couple of campaign setting books would be purchased by my players. Perhaps not, but WotC would sell at least 1 to me along with those modules, which is better than none as it stands now.

Lastly, all this is just my opinion based on my experience. Your mileage may vary. One gamer's trash is another gamer's treasure. Insert other qualifying remark here. And here's hoping I can play so much that I exhaust my current supply and try that Eberron campaign after all!