sniff sniff...Do I smell 2nd edition mistakes?

[Li Shenron]

...power creep exists with each new product...

While talking with a friend about how many D&D books are coming out every year, and wondering if this rate could exhaust too quickly the ideas for 3ed (thus giving way for 4ed or another 3.x), we suddenly horrified at the thought that WotC may decide to release a new series about "powerplay options". That is, something similar to the Complete X, only purposefully overpowered, with the excuse that it would "spice up your campaign" or "improve your gaming experience". Be sure that A LOT of gamers would buy those books, possibly even more than the Complete X.

 

[Ranger REG]

I liked the 2e splatbooks and thought they were well done. The 3e books looked to be of poor quality and seemed dumb down so I didn't buy any. I would have been really mad to have bought them and then had the 3.5 character books come out. Similar to how I felt screwed when I bought up Alternity a month before it was canceled.

The 2e splatbooks are good on the fluff side, and by itself, one splatbook's kits are okay. But together with other kits from other complete handbooks, they can be confusing. Initially, 2e's character kit was a good concept, but overall they didn't balance out when you mix kitted characters with non-kitted characters, and they were ambiguous about whether a character is allowed one kit per class or one kit total.

As for Alternity, I'm guessing they didn't get enough customers to support the line itself, and they'd rather allocate their company's resource to other places like the newly acquired Star Wars RPG license.

I really do think that WOTC is making the same mistake as before. Your point is well taken that they don't have a multitude of settings. What are they going to do when they run out of race/character books? The environment series is a new refreshing idea although I haven't bought one to grade the quality. The old 2e had the OPTION of kits. This edition seems to have a power creep inherently built into it with feats and prestige classes. I'm not sure where they're going, but I'm worried quality may take a dive.

I disagree. I do recall they support kits by publishing adventures modules for PCs with kits (e.g., Fighter's Challenge, Cleric's Challenge, etc.).

Let's face it, the 2e customers like kits that TSR put out those complete handbooks for each classes, plus a couple more that is not part of the 2e core rules (ninja & barbarian).

I've always proposed an annual for WOTC. Every year you could buy a hard cover book with a compilation of all the WOTC feats, spells, and prestige classes put into one book so I don't have to keep cross referencing different material. In that case, I wouldn't mind being double taxed.

Compiled from where? The old 3.0e splatbooks? I don't think people would like to wait a year in the hope that a 3.0e PrC, feats, and other material have been revised for 3.5e.

 

[Turanil]

You sound like me after buying the 3.0 splatbooks.

I stopped buying such kind of supplements after two 3.0 splatbooks. There has been needed that many people to praise that X-psionics 3.5 was so great for me actually buying it after having been so disappointed by 3.0 psi. However, I have ceased to buy most WotC releases for both poor quality (in terms of balance and editing) and too many of them. Plus the 4th edition is coming very soon and all my 3.5 books will turn obsolete so...

 

[Turanil]

We suddenly horrified at the thought that WotC may decide to release a new series about "powerplay options". That is, something similar to the Complete X, only purposefully overpowered, with the excuse that it would "spice up your campaign" or "improve your gaming experience". Be sure that A LOT of gamers would buy those books, possibly even more than the Complete X.

Why are you giving them this intolerable idea!?

 

[Ranger REG]

I stopped buying such kind of supplements after two 3.0 splatbooks. There has been needed that many people to praise that X-psionics 3.5 was so great for me actually buying it after having been so disappointed by 3.0 psi.

Not a fan of the Psionic's Handbook myself, so I don't feel the need for XPH which is just an improvement the PsiHB's existing model to psionics.

Plus the 4th edition is coming very soon and all my 3.5 books will turn obsolete so...

And when that day come, I will retire from the RPG hobby altogether, unless it comes out AFTER 2010.

 

[Eremite]

I don't believe that we're at the 2E stage which is not, in any way, taken to be a statement of support of bad editing, unbalanced design and similar problems.

IMO, most of the 3.5E products have been pretty good. Sure, there are few outstanding products but the only real dogs have been the Races of... series and (possibly) Complete Divine, however, even CD had some good features... just not enough to jusitfy the price!

On a more positive note, I've found a couple of the FR3.5E products to be excellent (the recent Lost Empires of Faerun is a true 5/5 product, IMO/YMMV/etc...) and the Eberron products have been excellent as well.

One thing I would like to see from 2E days is this: bring back the old campaign settings! Heresy I know, but I'm sure the economics would be OK if each setting had but a single campaign book plus a mega-adventure as happened with Wheel of Time. I would love to see an update to Dark Sun (just not by the Paizo staff... sorry!) and Birthright (I really don't trust the Paizo folks to get this right either).

 

[Keeper of Secrets]

I am not so sure that things are as bad as some people think. The 3rd ed material and the 2nd ed material are vastly different from one another. The 3rd ed material is far and away better and more useful (though the editing is a problem).

I think one of the strongest benefits that 3rd ed products have going for them is the creativity that is far and away better than the kind of stuff that came out before. Libris Mortis and Fostburn are really brilliant, so it is not like they are just putting out trash.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

The old 2e had the OPTION of kits. This edition seems to have a power creep inherently built into it with feats and prestige classes. I'm not sure where they're going, but I'm worried quality may take a dive.

So the Complete Series' aren't options? Huh? I think you may need to look at those old 2E kits for powercreep btw. A great deal of them were broken beyond all sense of balance.

 

[Voadam]

I am not so sure that things are as bad as some people think. The 3rd ed material and the 2nd ed material are vastly different from one another. The 3rd ed material is far and away better and more useful (though the editing is a problem).

I think one of the strongest benefits that 3rd ed products have going for them is the creativity that is far and away better than the kind of stuff that came out before. Libris Mortis and Fostburn are really brilliant, so it is not like they are just putting out trash.

Except in monsters.

2e had superior monster descriptions and background information to make them come alive. 3e has better monster mechanics and full color pictures but less information for making monsters come alive.

For instance I'm running lord of the iron fortress which introduces Bladelings in 3e and then later they were in the 3.0 MMII.

I later found their descriptions in the 2e Planescape ESD planes of law that I own and got a lot more information on using them as opposed to merely running them in a combat.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Until WotC starts putting out base classes more powerful than the core's Big Three (druid, cleric & wizard), I'm not going to worry too much about power creep. As far as I can see, the only power creep in the Complete series comes from more options (which, ironically, helps the Big Three more than anyone else) and a handful of poorly designed prestige classes, like the Hulking Hurler.

What I find funny and/or sad is that the dual bugaboos that WotC has backed off from (beyond 20th level and campaign settings) are the two areas with the most room for expansion. If they want to keep pumping out books, which they must to stay afloat, they'll eventually run out of things to say about Core D&D. They'd never run out of things to say about Spelljammer; heck, they've never run out of things to say about the Realms, and probably won't about the vast and unexplored lands of Eberron. And having, say, five books with 20 unique levels each (rather than theoretically infinite levels, ala the original ELH), would quintuple the amount of material they have room for.

Is there a market for campaigns and what is presently defined as "Epic"? Maybe not. But if not, WotC is going to have a very hard time finding new material to release outside the Eberron and perhaps Realms lines. Especially material targeted at players rather than GMs. Draconomicon and its kin are almost exclusively GM-focused, and even the regional books offer less to players than a class or race book.

Overall, I don't think WotC has any of the same problems TSR did with 2e, nor, for that matter, any of the same strengths. I also think the latter are more than most people give them credit for. TSR's problems went a lot deeper than its business model or the (severe) problems with AD&D 2e.