sniff sniff...Do I smell 2nd edition mistakes?

[Ridley's Cohort]

It seems like some people got lost in the context back there. I was replying to the game balance between 3rd and 2nd edition supplements not making a comparison on the editions as a whole.
In fact I play 3rd edition and I'm a strong proponent of it. But 3rd edition WotC supplements are utter crap and the 3.5 supplements are worse - and getting worse with each new book.
I still havn't seen anyone propose anything even approaching a Hulking hurler come out of the 2nd edition cheese and so I presume 3.5 cheese rules all.

From the POV of myself and my various DMs, the 2e Options books were so imbalanced as to be 90% unplayable. The worst of the 3.0 supplements are ~40% unplayable by my standards.

The Options books had a fundamental power creep problem where you simply cannot mix Optioned up characters with core only characters. Trying to would be a complete joke.

Sure, some particular concepts in 3e work vastly if your splat them up. But there are plenty of core only characters that hold their own.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only one sick of these damned edition wars anymore...

 

[DeadlyUematsu]

I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only one sick of these damned edition wars anymore...

You aren't the only who is sick of it.

A lot of people don't know a real lot about any edition of D&D, even the editions they play regularly, for any edition wars to yield forth sound arguements.

 

[Storyteller01]

I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only one sick of these damned edition wars anymore...

Nah...

But I think D&D can take a lesson from chess, poker, etc.

Is the power creep really improving the game, in any edition?

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Is the power creep really improving the game, in any edition?

You see, I don't care about power creep. I don't care about what one crazy character could do in 3e or what horrible book there was in 2e. I played both. I enjoyed both. THAT is what mattered. If you don't enjoy it. Fine. Don't play it. But don't go around screaming about how horrible things are.

This goes for all sides of the argument. Well, except for diaglo. We all know that OD&D is the only true game and all others are simply poor imitations.

 

[Crothian]

Nah...

But I think D&D can take a lesson from chess, poker, etc.

Is the power creep really improving the game, in any edition?

Yes it is. d20 has really become what the other editions said but nver really were: advanced. d20 is the game of options, I can do basically anything I want and create so many different styles of game play it is amazing by combining the right elements from all the books. Some of these elements will produce powerful combos, but guess what some people like that. I would perfer to have too many options then not enough.

However, the failure of d20 is there are no products that tell you how to combine the options. Even books filled with cool options like Unearthed Arcana, Advanced Players Manual, etc never say how to really bring it all together. They assume that we the players and DMs can figure it out for ourselves and that is where the Advanced element truely comes in. People new to the game really cannot be expoected to be able to figure out what will and what won't go together to help or hinder a game.

 

[Orius]

LOL!

For many of them, I agree. Still there was some useable material, even in (shudder) Sword and Fist.

I liked Sword and Fist.

*laughs maniacally at the thought of the convulsions triggered by this one single sentence*

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I will say that it is a lot easier for a DM to keep an eye on things in 3.x than in 2nd ed. A lot more care was taken on play balance, and there is no Complete Elf horror. (I had a player try to insist that I had to allow the use of that peice of drek, because it was official...)

Mind you, there are books I don't use, but that has more to do with whether I think that they fit my game world than whether they are balance. Book of Vile Dorkness would be a poor fit for Iron Kingdoms...

The Auld Grump

 

[Orius]

Well, they do have cross-references in the newer books, like Lost Empires of Faerûn mentions 35 monsters from almost 20 sources. BUT, they offer monster substitutes. So if you come by, say the Caller in Darkness (from the Expanded Psionics Handbook) who's said to inhabit a phantom city, and you don't have XPH, you just use a dread wraith. Often enough, it's only a mention, anyway (like described above), so if you don't have the genuine article you can use the substitute without changing any of the relevant things.

I think that's the best of both worlds: The loyal fans get opportunities to use their plethora of books, but the others aren't punished by being unable to use that part of the book they just bought.

I do like some cross referencing. One thing I liked about cross references (when I had the cross references at any rate) was that it gave me a chance to use spells, magic items, monsters and so one from non-core books. A lot of 2e stuff referenced itself and core and that's it. With wizards or something, you'd occasionally get some that had spells from the Tome of Magic, but that's about it (and I think everyone had that book anyway).

On the bad side was the required use of products, especially stuff that was long OOP. One of the biggest offenders in this category was Legends and Lore, particularly WRT the Planescape setting.

I'll agree with your middle ground is good stand: give us the opportunity to use non core stuff every now and then, but also give us substitutes or enough bare bones stats so if we don't have specific resources, we still have something palyable.

 

[Orius]

I can try and play a thief or bard.

Or, alternately, I can try and play a single class fighter in a party with a multi-class elven fighter mage. It's FUN being 10th level in one class when your buddy is 9th level in two, and it only gets MORE FUN as you gain more levels.

Nah, you're not having real fun.

You got to be a single class fighter in a party with said thief or bard (preferably bard), that elf fighter-mage MUST be a bladesinger, and to round out the party, throw in one of the specialty priests from Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, or Demihuman Deities. You should probably make your fighter a halfling as well. Fully unlimited kits are a must. For even more fun, throw in some Player's Option rules as well, and allow that wimpy bladesinger to specialize. And to maximize your 2e fun, make that bladesinger a drow bladesinger that dual-wields scimitars.