sniff sniff...Do I smell 2nd edition mistakes?

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Book Planning...

After reading a lot of the posts both for and against wizards, it is apparent that know matter what Wotc does they will be second guessed (as someone pointed out in a message further back). As original poster on this thread I still hold true to the belief that power creep exists in most of the books that come out. Granted, it is not as bad as the previous editions IMO but it does exist. Splatbooks really change what the core class is allowed to do and how they operate. One of the biggest 'breakers' in my mind are spells. Spells like murderous mist for druids are far more potent and versatile than what druids have access to in the core books. There are many spells that do the same for clerics. The roles of spellcasters seem to be mixed. There are even spells that a wizard/sorceror can cast that give healing now and that doesn't make any sense at all to me. Spells are poorly written and lead to a lot of confusion and the authors don't take into account for mixed classes IMO. How does this spell work if a wizard/rogue uses it? Does it become broken? Is it too powerful for the level that I have put it on? Feats and PrC can do the same but not on as large a scale IMO.

Having said that, it is my belief that the books could be improved if Wotc were to change the designs of the books (and by no means am I advocating only crunch in a book like this). Instead of focusing on classes and races why not focus on the mechanics of the game. They are much more modular and it would be easier to add them to the game as one author writes the mechanic than can affect all the classes equally rather than focusing on a class or race that the next auther feels he must meet or exceed to make his book worth buying. In case I have lost you here is an example...One author writes a book on feats. He considers all classes and designs feats for the classes. He is free to design new categories of feats (ala weapon style, divine and wildshape to name a few). Since he is now giving new feat options for one class he can think about how those feats would affect other classes and can design feats that oppose that or at the very least give the same bonus in terms of power level for the other classes when he designs said feat. The same principle can be applied to spells. One author, one design view and spellcasters will benefit equally. This can be extrapolated into a book on skills, PrC, alternate subraces and so on. Once the end is reached, about 2 years later or so they could start over again much like MM2 and MM3 just continue to add monsters but don't replace the original book. Consumers can easily buy a book to add to one part of their game but not another and it would not affect balance or consistency whatsoever...

Having said that I do think other supplement books like Frostburn and Maelstrom could still be produced the way they are (but even these suffer from the afore mentioned power creep). What do you think of a product like this?
 

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Markn said:
(snip) Feats and PrC can do the same but not on as large a scale IMO. (snip)

Actually, I think most of the truly broken examples that people give relate to PrCs rather than spells.

(snip) In case I have lost you here is an example...One author writes a book on feats. He considers all classes and designs feats for the classes. (snip) Consumers can easily buy a book to add to one part of their game but not another and it would not affect balance or consistency whatsoever... (snip)

1. This would be incredibly boring for the designer(s).

2. The problem is rarely with a single feat or PrC or even spell but, rather, how they combine together. Looking at each component in a single book doesn't address the basic issue that WotC's development process doesn't include considering new options in the light of the other options that are available.
Basically, what we're seeing is a flawed development process (not flawed design, per se). If I owned WotC (God forbid... I prefer to make decent returns on my investments) I would ensure that everything designed was run past the most rabid and pedantic EXTERNAL playtesters I could find. The guys on WotC's Character Optimisation boards would be my first port of call: " So, fellas, see what you can break with this." And after that was all done, I would have John Cooper read the pre-print manuscript and find all the errors that missed the eagle eyes of my editing staff.
 

More on kits

I'm going to jump into the whole kit debate here. I'm not quoting any single post, because I'm responding in general.

I sort of like the kit idea as a whole. They basically gave a character concept, gave a list of proficiencies that suited the character, and other information like alignment, equipment, outlook and so on. But there are downsides, like providing benefits with only roleplaying penalties, breaking core rules, and frontloading with great abilities at first level. However, I'd still say even today a player might be able to get some use out of the idea; a kit can help with say coming up with a character concept or choosing suitable skills (possibly feats too).
 

Orius said:
I'm going to jump into the whole kit debate here. I'm not quoting any single post, because I'm responding in general.

I sort of like the kit idea as a whole. They basically gave a character concept, gave a list of proficiencies that suited the character, and other information like alignment, equipment, outlook and so on. But there are downsides, like providing benefits with only roleplaying penalties, breaking core rules, and frontloading with great abilities at first level. However, I'd still say even today a player might be able to get some use out of the idea; a kit can help with say coming up with a character concept or choosing suitable skills (possibly feats too).
It's a concept that needs to be revised, that's all I'm saying. It should be able to offer role concept or archetype but does not gain any advantage over PCs who does not take a kit.
 

Ranger REG said:
It's a concept that needs to be revised, that's all I'm saying. It should be able to offer role concept or archetype but does not gain any advantage over PCs who does not take a kit.

Kits exist now. All you need to do is take the right feats and skills - that is the essence of a kit. All you need is to write it up more formally.

The one aspect of kits that doesn't exist so much in 3e is game penalties for game advantages (although flaws and traits from UA come close). However, those penalties are a difficult thing to assess.

Cheers!
 

eyebeams said:
IIRC, most of the books had a section for using them for one class/race games.

That's a big difference from "each of those books was really designed to make campaigning with a single class an end in of itself."

I think each of the books was designed to expand upon the role of each class. The Complete Fighter's Handbook was my favourite of the series because it added some great new options to the rules - style specialisation and combat manuevers.

The Priest and Elf books both said that they assumed a variant from the standard PHB.

Which really wrecked them...

Cheers!
 


I'm just going to cut and paste a couple of my previous posts because responding to the same statements over and over again is starting to get really old.

FireLance said:
I do agree that characters in 3.5e can do more cool things than characters in previous editions. However, whether or not a 3.5e character is more powerful than a 1e/2e character, and can easily defeat opponents that a character of equal level in previous editions would have a hard time doing is not an issue. You might as well ask why it's so easy to defeat a werewolf in Steve Jackson's Fighting Fantasy series, and so difficult to do so in the White Wolf Storyteller system. Or, to give a slightly more relevant example, why is it easier to defeat a mummy in D&D 3.0e than in 3.5e? The simple answer is that the designers decided to make the mummy tougher and increase its CR from 3 to 5. So, you would expect a group of 3rd-level PCs to defeat a mummy fairly easily in 3.0e (CR equal to level), but the same group of 3rd-level PCs would find a mummy to be a tough fight in 3.5e (CR two higher than level). Hence, the real issue is not how easily a character in any edition can defeat a specific creature, but how well the characters fare against the challenges they face, whatever they are. This is another aspect of balance: character level vs challenge rating. The sample cleric is a problem because he can easily defeat creatures that should be challenging encounters for a party of his level, not because he can defeat them easily when characters in previous editions could not.

FireLance said:
[RANT]Frankly, I've noticed that there is a tendency to call books bad because of a single questionable feat, spell, PrC or other rule, and it's starting to annoy me. I have my problems with individual elements of WotC books. I wouldn't allow the Frenzied Berserker PrC from Complete Warrior or the Shivering Touch spell from Frostburn in my games, and I would have used a different system to effect the Sudden Metamagic feats in Complete Arcane, but I've found plenty of other useful material in those books to justify the price I paid for them.

What is more, I applaud the spirit of innovation and the willingness to try something new and different that I've seen in recent WotC books. Without that, we wouldn't have the warlock, the spellthief or the scout base classes, or the Ascetic and Devoted series of feats. [Trivia: did you know that the scout's skirmish ability originally appeared in the Peregrine Runner PrC in Races of Stone?] Things that are new are not always refined or to everyone's taste, but in my view, the alternative - lack of creativity, stagnation, and the slow decline of gaming as a hobby - is much worse.[/RANT]
 

MerricB said:
Kits exist now. All you need to do is take the right feats and skills - that is the essence of a kit. All you need is to write it up more formally.

The one aspect of kits that doesn't exist so much in 3e is game penalties for game advantages (although flaws and traits from UA come close). However, those penalties are a difficult thing to assess.

Cheers!
Then the kits you are referring to are derived from 2nd edition Player's Option rules. All that such a kit can do is recommend which skills and feats would be most suitable for a specific role, be it a pirate or a gladiator. It doesn't offer any other game benefit, and you don't necessarily need to take a prestige class.
 

Voadam said:
Except in monsters.

2e had superior monster descriptions and background information to make them come alive. 3e has better monster mechanics and full color pictures but less information for making monsters come alive.

And a fair number of those pictures are wrong, and thus of even less help, color or not.
 

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