sniff sniff...Do I smell 2nd edition mistakes?

[DungeonMaster]

Never read the Arms & Equipment guide for 2e, but if it allowed things that had the same characteristics of elven plate, then I wouln't allow it either.

No. The 3E arms and equipment guide. But you must have problems with bracers of armor in your games. Or celestial armor.

Rapid shot in 3e at least requires that the user take a feat first. Double arrow shot in CBoE was available to all elves.

So they got a feat? This is broken how? Ever look at the 3.5 dwarf?
Even then it does not limit the bow tricks to elves.

Right. And I suppose that if a suppliment was released that gave elves the disintigrate eye ray as an option, it wouldn't be broken because already beholders have it.

That's called exageration. It's not a proof of anything in fact. It's showing you don't have an actual argument.

The problem with the bladesinger class kit was that it got a lot of bonuses, and the only real drawback was a roleplaying penalty. Yes, bladesingers got a -1 penalty to hit when trying to attack with something other than their chosen weapon, but this was a tiny penalty compared to all the good stuff they got.

I want to know the precise penalties for the following:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040305a
I'm REAL curious how you're going to explain that Prestige Class to me.
This is standard fare in 3E.

 

[Crothian]

I want to know the precise penalties for the following:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040305a
I'm REAL curious how you're going to explain that Prestige Class to me.
This is standard fare in 3E.

well, it isn't the greatest class to begin with. It gets lots of abilities but they mostly apply to thrown hammers (a weak weapon) and stuff like goblin and drow bane have limited applications.

But for the most part they have to get spells that they never improive som they become a waste, and need a lot of ranks in a less then useful skill.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I compare a CORE DRUID whose "munchkining" is limited to the (Core) natural spell feat to a vanilla build frenzied berserker (or hulking hurler).

Natural spell is indeed a horribly broken feat. Granted. That's Andy at his best. No questions asked. I play 3rd edition incidentally, not 3.5.

Hi, Frenzied Berserker. Say hello to a legion of summoned monsters, a higher strength, gargantuan size, a grapple check you simply cannot compete with, more hit points, total versatility, and no drawbacks whatsoever. Wow, you suck.

The grapple is removed by freedom of movement. The Strength is likely not higher unless you use non-core monsters for your druid - which doesn't help the non-core is balanced argument, and the hit points are a result of the 3.5 fubar polymorph mechanic.
A 3rd edition core druid is a different story. No natural spell, sensible polymorph that doesn't change hitpoints and creature type, restricted to animals by size, no plant wildshape, no insta-summons, no core wildarmor, no ridiculous 3.5 monk belt, no spot and listen class skills, and not as many poached wizard spells.
But anyhow, I won't argue it - the 3.5 druid is definitely dominant over any warrior class even at the mid-low levels. Not a hulking hurler or a berzerker with appropriate gear and feat selection, though that's not my point.
I won't argue the 3.5 druid, it's insane. Instead compare a 3.5 druid to a 3.5 druid WITH prestige class, like the fochlucan lyrisist. You can't but agree that this is insanity taken to the next level.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2
You now have skills, bab, 2 good saves, relaxed druidic oaths, 2 spell pools AND fighter increase in base-attack.
Now your 3.5 druid looks like a chump, with non-core, which is my argument.

 

[reanjr]

I've always proposed an annual for WOTC. Every year you could buy a hard cover book with a compilation of all the WOTC feats, spells, and prestige classes put into one book so I don't have to keep cross referencing different material. In that case, I wouldn't mind being double taxed.

I personally prefer having prerequisite books than reprinted material. Especially when the reprinted material is sometimes contradictory without any indication of such. I, too, would like to see an annual with a compilation of all feats, spells, prestige classes, skill uses, races, etc. with all the production taken out. Just the necessities. Take out all the pictures, go with a nice non-glossed stock and sell it for as cheap as possible. Because a book like this is going to be BIG. Include a section for all errata made that year. Make sure all rules have a reference as to what book they come from. And assume that all core books and previous annuals are available for reference, or else you are going to get a lot of wasted space.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

I want to know the precise penalties for the following:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040305a
I'm REAL curious how you're going to explain that Prestige Class to me.
This is standard fare in 3E.

Highly focused class abilities, and heavy attribute requirements.

Goblinkiller, Drowbasher and Giantkiller can be used only once per day - it's a nice ability, but heavily restricted (and it occupies three progression slots). This limits versatility in 2 ways. First, it's restricted to only three types of creatures, one of which is a single race (the drow) and another of which includes only a handful of creatures (goblinoid subtype). Second, it can be used for only Charisma bonus rounds per day - that means it's almost assuredly a one battle a day power.

Two of the Hammer's other abilities are likewise limited to 1/day - this makes the class a short burst wonder, but unsuited to a day of multiple encounters.

As Crothian said, the class requires spell levels, but grants no additional spell levels. This is a serious drawback for a cleric-based Hammer of Moradin, and a minor drawback for a paladin-based Hammer.

Again, as Crothian said, all the powers are based around the warhammer. The warhammer is a relatively weak weapon in itself, and its also the class' vulnerable point - a sunder or disarm leaves the Hammer in serious trouble.

In addition, one of the best ways to gain entry into the class is through the Paladin, but one of the Hammer's abilities exactly replicates a class ability the character already possesses (aura of courage) - making it superfluous.

Alternately, if you pursue the class as a single class cleric, or multi-class cleric with a melee warrior class, you can make use of aura of courage - at the cost of base attack bonus, leaving you trailing behind single class warriors in raw attack power.

Finally, the class' abilities require (or are made optimal use of) with two ability scores, Strength and Charisma. With standard point buy, or standard rolling, this means the Hammer will have a suboptimal Constitution score for a melee fighter, and a Wisdom score that will make his spellcasting even weaker.


The Hammer of Moradin is a relatively strong class in its niche - and, it should be noted, a class designed for the relatively power-boosted Forgotten Realms - but it's hardly a monster.

Patrick Y.

 

[Pants]

Now your 3.5 druid looks like a chump, with non-core, which is my argument.

Which is what happens when you introduced non-core stuff into 3e, 2e, and 1e games too.

Cavaliers from UA 1e (lots of stuff from UA), Specialty Priests from 2e (insert other complete books as necessary here), and from 3e the illustrious Archmage, Red Wizard, Shifter, Spellcasting Prodigy, Persistent Spell, Haste, Harm, Miasma, Firebrand, Reality Maelstrom, Hospitaler, Armor of Speed, Illithid Savant, Disciple of Dispater. I'm sure someone else with more knowledge of the splat-books will chime in with their other idiosyncrysies.

Oh, and if we count underpowered as well, might as well throw in the various Complete Books from 2e as well, the 3e Ranger, Bard, Exotic Weapons Master, Acolyte of the Skin, True Necromancer, Pale Master, Forsaker, Oozemaster, Halfling Outrider (no BAB), Demonologist.

2e also had the Skills and Powers and their own Complete Books, which varied in quality.

Face it, every edition has some terrible stuff. Multiclassing was overpowered in 2e, Druids are powerhouses in 3.5, Rangers were effing boring and useless in 3e (so were bards). PSIONICS are now playable, as opposed to being woefully underpowered in 3e and completely lacking in balance in other editions.

I really couldn't careless if you don't like 3.5. It's not my problem, I'm not gaming with you, so I don't have to deal with. I take issue at the fact that you just can't seem to see that every other edition has had its fair share of problems, with and without core material. A couple of kits/PrC's and feats don't break an entire system, they require a GM to be careful when introducing rules, but they don't break the system.
Anyone who says so is being, IMO, foolish.

 

[reanjr]

Might as well throw my 2 cp in on the kit idea. I think they are a great idea, with several good (IMO) ways to use them.

There is the pure RP way of doing it. Simply give a background, with hooks, etc. and a list of skills and feats that are appropriate. The one problem with this is that certain feats are sub-par for most classes. But this isn't too big a problem, though, since certain character themes are more appropriate for certain classes.

If you are willing to change the rules a little, you can remove class skills from the classes. All skills, with the possible exception of very specific class-related skills (spellcraft comes to mind for wizards, knowledge (religion) for clerics, survival for rangers) would be class-agnostic, being available to everyone (craft and profession are good for this), while the rest would be determined by kit.

Maybe you could add a new kit by doing something RP-wise or maybe a new one every so many levels (5 might be a good place to start, as you get new feats every 3rd, and ability score bumps every 4th). Whether or not you keep the old kit... don't know, but probably.

Universal Skills:
Craft
Profession

Bard: Concentration, Perform
Cleric: Concentration, Knowledge (religion)
Druid: Concentration
Paladin: Concentration
Ranger: Concentration
Sorcerer: Concentration
Wizard: Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft

Athlete kit: Balance, Climb, Jump
Diplomat kit: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Sense Motive, Speak Language
Explorer kit: Appraise, Climb, Intimidate, Search, Spot, Swim, Tumble
Infiltrator kit: Disable Device, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Use Rope
Loremaster kit: Decipher Script, Knowledge, Use Magic Device
Merchant kit: Appraise
Spy kit: Bluff, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot
Woodsman kit: Climb, Handle Animal, Heal, Ride

Now, there might some initial problems (infiltrator or spy are both VERY good for a standard D& campaign) but I think the gist of it is good.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I won't argue the 3.5 druid, it's insane. Instead compare a 3.5 druid to a 3.5 druid WITH prestige class, like the fochlucan lyrisist. You can't but agree that this is insanity taken to the next level.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2
You now have skills, bab, 2 good saves, relaxed druidic oaths, 2 spell pools AND fighter increase in base-attack.
Now your 3.5 druid looks like a chump, with non-core, which is my argument.

Uh... no. Just, no.

That's insanity taken to the next level alright. In that you'd have to be insane to believe it.

The fochlucan lyrist (aka the old skool bardz0rz), although a very cool class, is trash next to a straight druid. You lose your best class feature (wild shape) outright, delay your spellcasting progression to the point you may not even get 9th level spells, and get a worse hit dice. You get 2 good saves, which is the only thing you mentioned that's even any good... and it ain't good enough.

The best PrC combo for druids is Nature's Warrior/Master of Many Forms/Warshaper (at least the latter pair), only when at least the latter pair or preferrably all three are taken, and even then it's weaker than the core druid once he gets 8th and 9th level spells.

3.5 core may be "broken" (in the sense that druids dominate, and wizards and clerics are significantly better than the other classes), but it's not experiencing power creep until non-core material surpasses the core druid. And if it is broken, it's by definition broken only because some PCs are simply better than others, rather than being more specialized.

The hulking hurler is an example of poor wording more than he is poor design. Unless twinked-out (for example, using the otherwise just-OK war hulk), he's powerful, limited and not overwhelming. He's a poorly designed class mostly because unsuspecting GMs could easily throw him against a party without realizing just how bad he would be, since many Huge creatures have low CRs but silly-high LAs. Now, as a PC, there are no less than five conditions that must be met:

> We're starting at 3rd level or you're coming in late (or else you can't be Large)
> Monstrous races are allowed (or else you can't be Large)
> MiniHB is allowed (or else you can't be a War Hulk)
> Multiple PrCs are allowed (or else you can't be both a Hurler and a Hulk)
> We're playing 12th level or higher (or else it's not really that great)

And even with that, you're still only good at one thing - hitting stuff with a rock. You're truly useless in social settings, many dungeons are too small for you to fit into, and in the wilderness you require someone else to do spotting and survival.

As to frenzied berserker vs. druid - I'll take that matchup anyday and put my money on the druid. Druid turns into sparrow, FB is instantly, irrevocably useless, druid pounds him with flame strike, the end. Or do you prefer air elemental, eagle, earth elemental on a cliff, any creature with a climb or swim speed... or perhaps just entangle the bugger.

3.0 actually did experience power creep - wizzy and cleric were the best of the core group, and the splats/OA/FR did raise the bar over their heads.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I give up. This is nuts.
I understand Enworld has glowing "3E" symbols everywhere and this would probably not be the correct place to debate the ridiculous power creep 3.5 has experienced.

I've presented the release schedules, I've shown the level of broken abilities that can be brought from non-core on-the-shelf today WotC products.

Now I'm being told a dual-caster progression with 2 good saves full base attack more skill points and better skills with a slight delay in spellcasting is "balanced". Or "you lose your paladin spellcasting progression" is balanced.

But a kit is broken that did, get this, +1 to hit and damage, +1/4 levels to do a fancy maneuver and a level/2+1 AC bonus when casting spells, blindfighting and dancing.
No shields, one handed weapons only, nothing heavier than studded leather or elven chain, +2 casting time increase, loss of +1 to hit with bows, -1 to hit with all other weapons.

This is ridiculous . No seriously. The level of bias is tangible and disgusting . I've never seen anything like this in my life, not even on the WotC boards. And I play 3E. This almost makes me ashamed to do so.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

This is ridiculous . No seriously. The level of bias is tangible and disgusting . I've never seen anything like this in my life, not even on the WotC boards. And I play 3E. This almost makes me ashamed to do so.

Would you be amazed if some of us have felt the same way about your posts all along?