D&D 5E So 5th edition is coming soon

[Jhaelen]

I understand what you are saying; I disagree. Show me.

Oh dear. Another 50 page thread in the making...

A question: Have you read 'Hammerfast'?

When I read it, my immediate thought was: This is exactly the kind of thing that's been missing from WotC's adventure modules!

It's advertised as an 'adventure site' but it's really a lot closer to the way many of the 'classic' adventure modules have been presented than any of the actual 4e adventure modules. I guess it's a kind of 'sandbox'.

It has no delve-style encounter at all and apart from a couple of stat blocks, it's almost edition/system agnostic.
It's not 'ready to play', but with a minimal investment of preparation it can be turned into a great series of adventures. It has a ton of adventure hooks, interesting npcs, locations and even a 'campaign outline'.

Now, imagine if they had added a second book to 'Hammerfast', detailing about 8-10 encounters in the delve format for one 'ready-to-play' introductory adventure. Imho, that would have been the best of both old-school design and the user-friendliness that is expected of a modern product.

 

[igniz13]

And again, people go on about what they want and not what's best for the system.

No-one looks at what 5e should achieve objectively.

Dear WoTC, do everything I want to see, don't do the things I hate.

I'm not going to break down the OP's statements, couldn't be bothered on the WoTC forum, certainly won't here.

Frankly, I can't see much need for changes on this thread that would require a completely new edition but might be better served by better approaches to adventure construction.

Don't like long combats, don't make long combats.

 

[Ycore Rixle]

Ok!

Looks like the season of 5E threads has started again.

Seriously people, instead of saying how you would do 5E, just design your own game and publish it.

It could be the next big thing.

Done and done.

Go check Spellbound Kingdoms. Buy it here.

The combat system is what I wanted to do in Book of Nine Swords, but Rich Baker had already sketched out that book's system when he turned it over to us poor freelancers. I started work on SK when I realized that that there was no way I was interested in continuing to freelance for WOTC. So, in a way, SK is my version of 5e. (Not the setting; that would need to be more generic. But the mechanics. And the setting is easily ripped out.)

Edit: Reasons the combat system is far, far better than 4e's:
1. No modifiers after the die is rolled. What you see on the die is what you get.
2. Style matters. Dagger-and-wine, Free Sword, Twin Weapon Fighting, Savage, et al. have different strengths and weaknesses.
3. It's fast. Blazing fast, really. Makes Savage Worlds combat look like Oblivion running on a Vic 20.
4. It's tactical but
4.5 It doesn't require a grid or minis.
5. It supports the gameworld as a self-consistent reality rather than the gameworld as a meaningless facade.
6. Character matters. A character's Inspirations are imprtant.
7. Banter. Insulting your opponent is an effective tactic, but not in the "Feather Me Yon Oaf" "I raise that monster's aggro" marking "He has to attack me now" way.
8. Comparatively speaking, no bookkeeping. A tiny bit is there, of course, but compared to 4e, it's nothing.

So yeah, check it out!

 

[Raven Crowking]

Oh dear. Another 50 page thread in the making...

A question: Have you read 'Hammerfast'?

Yup.

I've also retrofit 4e modules into another format, and played around with folding, spindling, and mutilating earlier edition modules into Delve format. And, until you have done so, IMHO, it is difficult to see how the Delve format changes the material. IMHO, Delve has a profound -- and profoundly limiting -- affect on the material so formatted.

(Which is not to say that a set-piece battle couldn't be presented as it would be in Delve without limiting the surrounding material. It is the whole format that causes a problem, IMHO and IME.)

So, if someone claims that it is "trivial" to put something like B2 into Delve Format, "Show Me" is, IMHO, a rational response.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Raven Crowking's contention is that if you took B2 and changed nothing but the formatting, moving it across to the Delve format, you would in doing so strip out the soul of the adventure, and so destroy it.

No. Raven Crowking's contention is that you would profoundly change the adventure, and that the constraint of making each area a preset encounter would fundamentally limit the interaction inherent in the setting as Gygax wrote it.

In the 4e designer blogs, the designers talked about how cool it was in B2 that creatures in the caves would flow out of one area and into the encounter where the PCs were at (but only when it was appropriate). Being able to do so is one of the promises of 4e that the Delve works against.

In the Delve you have two discrete encounter locations, each of which tell you where everyone is starting. If you flow one encounter into another, not only do you upset the careful balance, but you need to flip between two-page spreads. And, of course, the next encounter area is empty.

Doing this frequently in a setting that had been fluid (like B2 as originally written) and you end up with a lot of wasted design work. You also end up with a lot of page-flipping. You end up strongly encouraged, IMHO and AFAICT, to simply not do it.

What was a fluid and dynamic setting becomes a static series of set-piece battles.

It doesn't "lose it's soul", and it may still be a fun adventure. But it is no longer the same adventure.

The format matters.



RC

 

[delericho]

No. Raven Crowking's contention is that you would profoundly change the adventure, and that the constraint of making each area a preset encounter would fundamentally limit the interaction inherent in the setting as Gygax wrote it.

Oops. I apologise for putting words in your mouth. My mistake.

 

[triqui]

Releasing everything, even just 4 races and 4 classes in one book will not happen. 3 books make more money.

If you only release one book with all the essential rules...many who would normally buy 3 books will ONLY buy that first book. They will ignore the rest, even if the rest have other classes like Barbarian, or Druid, or Paladin...and races such as the Half-Orc.

They will consider the basic one rulebook as the core...and everything else as an add on.

Simply put, 3 books for $35 each make more than one book at $35, or even one book at $50, or even one book at $75.

I think 5e is in development, and there are feelers out there seeing what works and what doesn't.

I think Computers and internet will be an important aspect of 5e, as that's the general trend in which literature (via Kindle, and other arenas), media, and entertainment are moving. I'm not certain how much it will be a part of it however...perhaps more...or a little less than it is now.

I think there are those who want a simpler game, and there are those who want an evolved game.

We'll see where it goes. Who knows, maybe the next sacred cow to bite the dust won't be HP, but will be stats...so instead of a stat from 3-18...it will be a stat between -1 to +4 (or +5 if you are a certain race).

While I agree that three book mean more money from existing players, I find fhis a doubled edged sword. Three books also become a deterrant for new players. Its not eaay to spend 100+ dollars in a game you havent played ever. Specially if you can get more bamng from your bucks from the 900lb gorilla of enterteinment industry, the videogames.

It's better to sell 1 40$ book to 1 million players, than selling 3 books to 250.000 players. It's even better than selling 3 books to 350000 playes, especially if you think 10% of your player base will suscript to DDI. Even if 1 million x40 < 350000 x120, getting 100000 guys to pay monthly is way better than getting 35000 guys to pay monthly

 

[Raven Crowking]

Oops. I apologise for putting words in your mouth. My mistake.

No worries.

And, just to be clear, I am not saying it would not be trivially easy to run these modules using the 4e ruleset. I am only talking about the (hidden? non-obvious?) ramifications of the Delve format, used in any ruleset.


RC

 

[KarinsDad]

11. Healing: more distinction between magical and non-magical healing

This.

I hate the fact that everyone and his brother can heal (or gain temporary hit points, or gain regeneration, or gain resistance), plus everyone can take a Second Wind.

They had to up the damage of the monsters in order to even threaten PCs anymore.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This.

I hate the fact that everyone and his brother can heal (or gain temporary hit points, or gain regeneration, or gain resistance), plus everyone can take a Second Wind.

They had to up the damage of the monsters in order to even threaten PCs anymore.

As a big fan of the warlord I disagree
That feels like a big hit to the martial heals.

I like second wind as a daily instead of encounter though... With some powers letting people recharge it.


We played around with second wind as a daily and all defenders get at 3rd level a second use of it,and healing and inspiring ward just recharged it, and gave d6s of temp hp... It did not work out as well as we hoped

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

No worries.

And, just to be clear, I am not saying it would not be trivially easy to run these modules using the 4e ruleset. I am only talking about the (hidden? non-obvious?) ramifications of the Delve format, used in any ruleset.


RC

See, maybe explaining what you are trying to say instead of repeating "show me" 5 different times might actually work...

FORMAT in my mind is secondary, especially at the level of pure presentation of information. For the record I hate the format WotC uses, I think it just stinks, but I don't think it has a lot to do with the character of the adventures themselves. It isn't irrelevant, but something like B2 could be presented in the modern format. I agree it would be a step down, but probably for different reasons than those you're proposing.

The actual organizational and thematic differences between say B2 and H1 are smaller than one might think. B2 is in theory a bit more non-linear, but given that the players have little information on what they will encounter in any given area the non-linearity amounts to "pick a cave, any cave". The main part of H1 only gives you one 'cave' but beyond that the differences are mostly in pacing. The one big cave is slow to get through, the many little caves of B2 mean the party returns to base more often (though even with H1 there's nothing really preventing this). Earlier parts of H1 are also pretty non-linear, you can go to the dig site or the kobold lair at whatever point you wish, or skip them entirely.

Really, when I consider a more sophisticated style of adventure that is really different I would look to things like Court of the Shadow Fey, or the Stolen Land APs for PF where the entire plot is integrated deeply into the adventure and informs every encounter. "Here's a dungeon full of enemies to slay" rarely rises to that level and the vast majority of the 'classic' 1e era modules are exactly that.

I don't know what printing of G1 you have, there's not even the slightest hint of any alternative ways to approach the adventure in the original version. The module starts with the PCs dropped on the doorstep of the Steading after a couple intro paragraphs which basically boil down to "giants are bad guys, slag them!" There are a couple ways into the 'dungeon' and given that the party is intended to be around 12th level they're quite likely to have magic etc that will let them come up with other creative ways in etc, but nothing of the sort is even hinted at in the adventure itself. It is purely a sequence of set-piece encounters. Now and then an area might note that its occupants will move to another location under certain circumstances. Not even the hill giant chief has any specific motivations or personality defined, and there is one plot hook leading you on to the second module which is entirely transparent.

Now, people have done all kinds of different spins on this basic material, but all the G modules AS WRITTEN are pure dungeon crawl devoid of any meaningful plot etc. The concept of "giants are raiding the kingdom and must be thwarted" has plenty of potential, but the material presented had to be much more fleshed out to create are deeper adventure (which was presented in a later reworking as I recall, not a module generally listed amongst the classics).

So in short, your definition of 'delve' apparently doesn't cover the early classic modules, but we can safely consign most of them to the 'pure dungeon crawl' genre, and we then see that H1 is, for example, pretty much in the same vein. As I said earlier, standards are higher today. G1 was a great success and became a classic in its day. H1, not really materially different, is derided as a brick today.

 

[darkwing]

I'm a big fan of 4e but it's not perfect. The number one thing I would change would be to either remove attribute scores or make "chance to hit" completely independent of those scores. Removing them altogether would be the easiest route and also clean up some legacy cruft such as most odd attribute scores giving no benefit, MAD classes, etc...

Separating combat feats from non-combat "talents" would also be a good idea.

But frankly, 4e is pretty solid and I also wouldn't be disappointed if they gradually change it through rules updates rather than throw it out completely and start from scratch.

 

[KarinsDad]

As a big fan of the warlord I disagree
That feels like a big hit to the martial heals.

Err, so?

As a non-fan of Warlords ( "GET UP!!! I don't care if you are unconscious." ) and a non-fan of Battleragers ( "I'm invincible!" ), I really dislike the martial power source being used for things like Teleports, Healing (or temporary hit points which is quasi-healing), Invisibility, Flight, etc.

The martial power source should be about attacking and defending, not magical effects.

A great leap (i.e. Jump) feels cinematic martial (or more accurately, Kung Fu Theater or Wuxia).

Flight does not feel martial at all.


Although there are limitations, it just feels like every Power Source can do everything.


I don't think that the Arcane power source should allow a caster to become super-strong or make great leaps either.

We have a gaming community culture now that magic can do anything. It should be limited and not step on the toes of other power sources. The designers should create clear cut boundaries.


In fact to me, the most powerful single target Strikers for damage should be in the Martial power source, but they should have limited ability to add conditions to targets whereas other power sources should allow for more conditions, but less damage.

I like second wind as a daily instead of encounter though... With some powers letting people recharge it.


We played around with second wind as a daily and all defenders get at 3rd level a second use of it,and healing and inspiring ward just recharged it, and gave d6s of temp hp... It did not work out as well as we hoped

The problem with Second Wind is that it's a way to give everyone a "25% Healing Potion" for free. Nobody really wants to use a Second Wind since healing from powers gains more hit points, just like nobody really wants to use a real healing potion because Second Wind gains more hit points.

A Healing Potion uses up two resources instead of one. It should do more healing than a Second Wind, not less (beyond the first few levels).

 

[darkwing]

The problem with Second Wind is that it's a way to give everyone a "25% Healing Potion" for free.

It's not free, it's a standard action (unless you're dwarven). In our groups Second Wind is a last resort type thing because no one wants to waste their attack. Now sometimes if a person has to either use it or die they will use it but it's by no means anything anyone (other than dwarves) wants to use on a regular basis.

Normal health potions are mostly worthless (much better to use resistance potions) but I don't see that as a bad thing. The primary healing source should be leaders anyway.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Err, so?

As a non-fan of Warlords ( "GET UP!!! I don't care if you are unconscious." ) and a non-fan of Battleragers ( "I'm invincible!" ), I really dislike the martial power source being used for things like Teleports, Healing (or temporary hit points which is quasi-healing), Invisibility, Flight, etc.

The martial power source should be about attacking and defending, not magical effects.

A great leap (i.e. Jump) feels cinematic martial (or more accurately, Kung Fu Theater or Wuxia).

Flight does not feel martial at all.

Yes, and oddly enough there are no fighter or rogue powers which allow you to fly. Strange how that works... Now, a fighter can easily gain flight in any number of ways, but not through a class feature, nor in any fashion that is specifically limited to martial characters.

Rogues do have a single teleport power, Mountebank's Flight, level 22 encounter utility power which allows you to teleport adjacent to an enemy when THEY teleport. Pretty limited, but admittedly it exists.

Dragon 395 contains the ONLY two teleport powers for fighters, as part of an article on a specific Essentials Knight build designed to emulate the Swordmage. Maybe they should have just called the powers Arcane and had done with it, but honestly I find this at best a mole hill, not a mountain...

Although there are limitations, it just feels like every Power Source can do everything.

Except as I've demonstrated above this is a perception, not the truth. Are there some things that some people will object to as 'too magical to be martial'? I'm sure there are, but in the VAST majority of the cases of these kinds of complaints you find that the perception is actually inaccurate. I think it arises because all classes have powers and once you've read 100's of powers all you really have in your head is a general impression and details of the ones you really paid attention to, which you most often can't even recall until it comes up again. I mean, honestly, I too would have guessed there were a number of flight powers in martial off the top of my head. 4e has actually kept the line of separation pretty clean.

I don't think that the Arcane power source should allow a caster to become super-strong or make great leaps either.

We have a gaming community culture now that magic can do anything. It should be limited and not step on the toes of other power sources. The designers should create clear cut boundaries.

Well, maybe. OTOH I don't think it is too dire a situation if there is a spell or ritual that will let a wizard gain some strength or leap further than normal once in a great while. I'd note that the powers which are commonly available for that purpose are unlikely to make the wizard exceed the ability of a well-trained fighter, and Jump at least IIRC can be cast on the fighter anyway. Plus there are just those situations where your fighter is not available or everyone needs to jump, etc. Being able to expend a daily type resource to do that now and then, when the fighter can do it all day every day, doesn't seem too out of line to me.

In fact to me, the most powerful single target Strikers for damage should be in the Martial power source, but they should have limited ability to add conditions to targets whereas other power sources should allow for more conditions, but less damage.

Well, the high damage strikers ARE pretty much martial (you can cook up some others, but they hardly seem radically out of place to me and note that the main one which is only marginally a weapon user is the Avenger). I won't disagree that the more significant controllery type stuff is probably better kept mostly out of martial. OTOH it IS to a large extent, certainly in heroic tier. There are a couple powers that are exceptions to that. Personally I don't have a real problem with them, Blinding Barrage IS a bit silly from a simulationist standpoint, but it is one power and hardly represents the whole game nor in my mind implies that a major mechanical reworking of the game is required.

The problem with Second Wind is that it's a way to give everyone a "25% Healing Potion" for free. Nobody really wants to use a Second Wind since healing from powers gains more hit points, just like nobody really wants to use a real healing potion because Second Wind gains more hit points.

A Healing Potion uses up two resources instead of one. It should do more healing than a Second Wind, not less (beyond the first few levels).

Maybe healing potions could have been redesigned. I think the reason they didn't want them overshadowing normal healing capabilities was just that (at least IMHO) the "oh, I have to drop some healing potions now so the party can keep going" was cheesy. Instead there is a built in function to do that, which a PC has to give up a standard action to use, a heavy penalty in a fight (unless you're a dwarf). In fact in my experience DMing 4e I've seen characters other than the dwarf use SW only a handful of times when things got really desperate and they were just hanging on for dear life. I think that's exactly what the devs envisaged it to be, that desperation tactic that you pull out in the "Oh, Kord, I'm about to die, gotta hang on another round!" situation. I think it is a great mechanic.

One thing I have tended to do is just use the paragon healing potions now and then. I've given one out rarely, but when they're used they feel quite magical, whereas the heroic tier ones are a toss up as to being worse than SW once you hit 5th level or so. Maybe they should have brought them down to levels 1/11/21 instead of 4/15/25.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, and oddly enough there are no fighter or rogue powers which allow you to fly. Strange how that works... Now, a fighter can easily gain flight in any number of ways, but not through a class feature, nor in any fashion that is specifically limited to martial characters.

You mean no powers like "Wings of Devilry"? Sure, it's a Ranger martial power for a specific Paragon Path, but still martial.

Rogues do have a single teleport power, Mountebank's Flight, level 22 encounter utility power which allows you to teleport adjacent to an enemy when THEY teleport. Pretty limited, but admittedly it exists.

Dragon 395 contains the ONLY two teleport powers for fighters, as part of an article on a specific Essentials Knight build designed to emulate the Swordmage. Maybe they should have just called the powers Arcane and had done with it, but honestly I find this at best a mole hill, not a mountain...

Well, multiclassing is often used as power source delving.

There are very few martial PCs (and other PCs for that matter) that I have ever seen played to mid-Paragon that don't eventually multiclass to acquire some type of magical ability. And, Paragon Path / Epic Destinies (of other classes even) can be used for this as well.

Like I said, there are limitations, but there are also some pretty easy ways to bypass those limitations.

Except as I've demonstrated above this is a perception, not the truth.

It's not a perception for healing.

Well, the high damage strikers ARE pretty much martial (you can cook up some others, but they hardly seem radically out of place to me and note that the main one which is only marginally a weapon user is the Avenger). I won't disagree that the more significant controllery type stuff is probably better kept mostly out of martial. OTOH it IS to a large extent, certainly in heroic tier. There are a couple powers that are exceptions to that. Personally I don't have a real problem with them, Blinding Barrage IS a bit silly from a simulationist standpoint, but it is one power and hardly represents the whole game nor in my mind implies that a major mechanical reworking of the game is required.

Blinding Barrage, Come and Get It, Strong-Arm Loyalty, Crippling Smash. There are literally hundreds of such powers.

It's not every power, but they do exist. In fact, depending on which condition one is talking about, there are sometimes a lot of martial powers that throw out the condition. And even Sliding or Pushing is a type of control. I'm more ok with martial classes pushing than sliding or pulling.

Maybe healing potions could have been redesigned. I think the reason they didn't want them overshadowing normal healing capabilities was just that (at least IMHO) the "oh, I have to drop some healing potions now so the party can keep going" was cheesy.

Personally, I think the concept of Adventurers making, having, and using a bunch of healing potions is not cheesy at all.

I think it's cool. I'm kind of bummed that they mostly did away with it (due to the mostly worthlessness of healing potions and the vast proliferation of healing in the game).

Wand of Healing? I agree.

Potions of Healing? I think they make great finds in treasure troves. I think they would make great combat tactical options for NPCs (hence the reason PCs would find them in NPC lairs).

I personally think that the game was watered down in this area because the bang for the buck (healing surge to gain little healing) is so small.

Instead there is a built in function to do that, which a PC has to give up a standard action to use, a heavy penalty in a fight (unless you're a dwarf). In fact in my experience DMing 4e I've seen characters other than the dwarf use SW only a handful of times when things got really desperate and they were just hanging on for dear life. I think that's exactly what the devs envisaged it to be, that desperation tactic that you pull out in the "Oh, Kord, I'm about to die, gotta hang on another round!" situation. I think it is a great mechanic.

Great? Meh.

It's would be just as great for the PC to pull out a healing potion (if healing potions actually worked well).

The penalty is so large in the minds of many players that it's a wart on the system. And the healing is so weak (compared to powers) that players often think it is better to take their chances.

I do have my PCs use Second Wind now and then, but I have noticed that I used to use it a lot more often when the game first came out. Now with the plethora of bonuses that Leaders have to healing and the vast number of ways to get temporary hit points? Meh. I'd almost rather go unconscious and save a healing surge. The fact that the game has morphed to this point makes Second Wind even more meh now than it was previously.

One thing I have tended to do is just use the paragon healing potions now and then. I've given one out rarely, but when they're used they feel quite magical, whereas the heroic tier ones are a toss up as to being worse than SW once you hit 5th level or so. Maybe they should have brought them down to levels 1/11/21 instead of 4/15/25.

25 hit points and a save feels magical? Compared to what? Most healing powers that occur every encounter? A Potion of Vitality also cannot really be used when Dazed (without multiple rounds) or Stunned.

And a Potion of Vigor is a joke with the exception of the super rare encounter where the players know it will be tough, so they suck down these potions pre-combat.

The entire design of the vast majority of potions and consumable items is pretty weak overall.

They should have made consumable items worthwhile and players would then use some of their hard earned cash to buy/craft them. As is, we rarely see consumables in our games and that's pretty much a shame.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You mean no powers like "Wings of Devilry"? Sure, it's a Ranger martial power for a specific Paragon Path, but still martial.

I didn't specifically check rangers, though I doubt in general they are singled out for a special number of such powers. In any case the Hellborn Shadow PP is a rather specific thing, with fluff that surely indicates the powers it provides are not exactly 'mundane'. You could argue they should have a different power source, but really are we nitpicking the system that much?

Well, multiclassing is often used as power source delving.

There are very few martial PCs (and other PCs for that matter) that I have ever seen played to mid-Paragon that don't eventually multiclass to acquire some type of magical ability. And, Paragon Path / Epic Destinies (of other classes even) can be used for this as well.

Like I said, there are limitations, but there are also some pretty easy ways to bypass those limitations.

Sure, so when your fighter decides to take up spell casting, he's not strictly doing mundane non-magical stuff anymore... Kinda stands to reason to me. As I said above there are admittedly some PP powers that could arguably have different power source keywords, but since power source has virtually no mechanical significance (and never existed in previous editions where there was a greater distinction between casters and non-casters either) I'm not losing a lot of sleep over it.

It's not a perception for healing.

Except 'healing' covers a lot of territory, given that hit points are, and always have been, a highly abstract resource. Warlords heal by sheer force of will to motivate characters who's own reserves of luck, determination, and endurance have been depleted. Notice the PC receiving the healing STILL has to have HS to benefit. It isn't like you can resurrect the dead, or even someone who is really truly totally spent. Personally I think of HS much the way hit points were thought of in previous editions. As long as you have some, you're going to be able to go on, providing you can find a way to dig in.

Blinding Barrage, Come and Get It, Strong-Arm Loyalty, Crippling Smash. There are literally hundreds of such powers.

It's not every power, but they do exist. In fact, depending on which condition one is talking about, there are sometimes a lot of martial powers that throw out the condition. And even Sliding or Pushing is a type of control. I'm more ok with martial classes pushing than sliding or pulling.

Why can't a highly trained and motivated warrior induce his opponent to step sideways 5'? Why can't he for that matter draw in said opponent to closer range? I don't see any real problem with any kind of forced movement being within the purview of the martial power source at all. Honestly it is hard to find a condition that would seem illogical for a warrior to be able to produce. Petrified is about it. Stun, daze, blind, immobilize, prone, all seem quite feasible and don't imply anything beyond situations which could easily exist in real life.

I understand people get wigged by things like Come and Get It, which can produce results at times which leave some players uneasy. It has been discussed enough times in the past I don't think it needs to be rehashed again. I guess the question is if these relatively few powers seem unacceptable to people at a given table then why don't they just not play with them? MANY, if not most, players enjoy them and appreciate that they exist. I'm not convinced that nerfing fighters down to 'do damage' really is better for the game, nor really fair to the people that want them.

Now, I'd be OK with some kind of mechanical way to partition some things into a bin that is 'stuff that is highly implausible without magic' somehow to support more play styles, that would be fine. Of course nobody will EVER agree on exactly what belongs in that bin, so maybe it is one best erected by each group to suite their own tastes, I dunno...

Personally, I think the concept of Adventurers making, having, and using a bunch of healing potions is not cheesy at all.

I think it's cool. I'm kind of bummed that they mostly did away with it (due to the mostly worthlessness of healing potions and the vast proliferation of healing in the game).

Wand of Healing? I agree.

Potions of Healing? I think they make great finds in treasure troves. I think they would make great combat tactical options for NPCs (hence the reason PCs would find them in NPC lairs).

I personally think that the game was watered down in this area because the bang for the buck (healing surge to gain little healing) is so small.

Eh, I'm not saying that potions of healing are totally cheesy. I'm saying the rate at which they had to be acquired or produced and consumed in previous editions got to be kind of ridiculous. It doesn't even vaguely correspond with anything in heroic fantasy outside of gaming (where I have never yet encountered healing potions). They are VERY 'gamist' in my mind, and in a way that can't be easily fluffed over. Finding one now and then in some treasure, quaffing one once in a blue moon? Yeah, no problem with that. The 10 healing potions per level downed by the average mid-level AD&D character was a bit much. And yeah, the wand of CLW was just sick.

So really, I don't think we disagree much on this. I'd be OK with healing potions getting a bit stronger. They could probably just give you one HS worth of healing, basically a Second Wind for a minor action (maybe they make your beard grow and your legs shorter...). I think the reason they were not that good before was to discourage parties from simply making oodles of them and being able to burn surges left and right at little real cost. There had to be a way to let them scale in price too as at paragon the level 4 potion is trivially cheap. You'll have to deal with that issue before letting them return an HS, but at least nowadays getting a bare HS back isn't so good.

Great? Meh.

It's would be just as great for the PC to pull out a healing potion (if healing potions actually worked well).

The penalty is so large in the minds of many players that it's a wart on the system. And the healing is so weak (compared to powers) that players often think it is better to take their chances.

There are times when it is better than nothing, and potions have saved a few PCs lives in my game.

I do have my PCs use Second Wind now and then, but I have noticed that I used to use it a lot more often when the game first came out. Now with the plethora of bonuses that Leaders have to healing and the vast number of ways to get temporary hit points? Meh. I'd almost rather go unconscious and save a healing surge. The fact that the game has morphed to this point makes Second Wind even more meh now than it was previously.

Well, things have evolved some yes, but again it is there as a backstop so that a character always has a way to get at least SOME healing at some point in every combat regardless of how things go. It may be a sub-par option, but when your cleric is on the floor bleeding and you have 3 enemies around you? It suddenly starts seeming a lot better...

25 hit points and a save feels magical? Compared to what? Most healing powers that occur every encounter? A Potion of Vitality also cannot really be used when Dazed (without multiple rounds) or Stunned.

And a Potion of Vigor is a joke with the exception of the super rare encounter where the players know it will be tough, so they suck down these potions pre-combat.

The entire design of the vast majority of potions and consumable items is pretty weak overall.

They should have made consumable items worthwhile and players would then use some of their hard earned cash to buy/craft them. As is, we rarely see consumables in our games and that's pretty much a shame.

I think there were discussions of the reasons for specific rules on consumables of various kinds back a ways. The thing was, like with other items but more so, once the PCs are allowed to easily make consumables they HAVE to be limited enough that higher level characters with tons of them don't end up being stupidly overpowered. Actually, now that they are mostly uncommon, they could be revamped somewhat. Personally I think the 'you can craft anything' concept was the real error in 4e design to start with. It ROYALLY screwed up the design space for items of all kinds, not just consumables.

I mean, if I were going to design a 5e, I would SURELY go with something like the current crafting system with rarity. You could take it a bit further by say actually specifying a magical ingredient that would be needed for each uncommon item if someone wants to craft it, that would be cool. Then the items themselves could be entirely redone. I'd get rid of about 75% of them, consolidate similar ones into one item with possibly a couple of powers, etc. I guess basically I don't worry about consumables, they are just a wart on that pig. In any case I've actually found that the party will use them pretty effectively in some situations. At least in my games they were generally not a major big thing even back in the old days anyway, so I guess I don't really see a huge difference in how things work out.

 

[KarinsDad]

Sure, so when your fighter decides to take up spell casting, he's not strictly doing mundane non-magical stuff anymore... Kinda stands to reason to me. As I said above there are admittedly some PP powers that could arguably have different power source keywords, but since power source has virtually no mechanical significance (and never existed in previous editions where there was a greater distinction between casters and non-casters either) I'm not losing a lot of sleep over it.

Me neither, although I think that power sources should have stronger fluff and mechanical significances.

As for the Fighter taking up spell casting, there's very little downside. Yeah, a few feats maybe. But the gains far outweigh the loss and effort-wise (at least in the campaigns I've been in), it's pretty much effortless (i.e. no major quest for 4 levels in order to meet with the Secret Arcane Guild and convince them of your worthiness).

Except 'healing' covers a lot of territory, given that hit points are, and always have been, a highly abstract resource. Warlords heal by sheer force of will to motivate characters who's own reserves of luck, determination, and endurance have been depleted.

Let's not get into Warlords. I totally hate the concept.

It's healing. Except for when it's not.

Why can't a highly trained and motivated warrior induce his opponent to step sideways 5'? Why can't he for that matter draw in said opponent to closer range? I don't see any real problem with any kind of forced movement being within the purview of the martial power source at all.

It's the wierd ones like "Get Over Here" and "Menacing Strike" that bug me more.

I prefer Martial Powers to not include Telekinesis.

Now, I'd be OK with some kind of mechanical way to partition some things into a bin that is 'stuff that is highly implausible without magic' somehow to support more play styles, that would be fine. Of course nobody will EVER agree on exactly what belongs in that bin, so maybe it is one best erected by each group to suite their own tastes, I dunno...

Agreed.

This is not the first version that has examples that go off on a wild hair. Usually, there's a way for Wizards to start healing just like Clerics once enough splat books come out. I just wish that the design concept of "I've thought of a cool thing" were tempered by a set of design meta-rules like "sorry, healing is the purview of these classes, not those classes, and no, you cannot get around it with temporary hit points either".

Eh, I'm not saying that potions of healing are totally cheesy. I'm saying the rate at which they had to be acquired or produced and consumed in previous editions got to be kind of ridiculous.

No more ridiculous than today where after 4 encounters, the group is totally spent and no amount of magic can restore them (shy of DM inserted plot devices).

I like magic being (drum roll please) ... MAGICAL. I like it to be awesome and special and wonderful and spectacular.

For the most part, 4E magic (at least the PC version) is a bit mundane. I throw a bolt of energy at you. I summon a wimpy creature. ho hum

I understand the balance reasons for it, but meh.

It doesn't even vaguely correspond with anything in heroic fantasy outside of gaming (where I have never yet encountered healing potions).

I beg to differ:

'Give them this,' said Gandalf, searching in his pack and drawing out a leathern flask. 'Just a mouthful each — for all of us. It is very precious. It is miruvor, the cordial of Imladris. Elrond gave it to me at our parting. Pass it round!'

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Eh, no system I know of has ever modeled the process of power acquisition by characters. It is just one of those things that isn't really easy to do and if you were to put some such rules in place they'd probably not make sense for many situations, so why not just leave it up to the players to deal with if they want to work it into their story? 4e is already pretty good at making it not really worthwhile for a fighter to decide to start casting spells one day on a whim anyway.

As for things like Menacing Strike, first of all there's already reasonable fluff for that, and beyond that it is again one of those things where you really want to relegate half the party to being second tier characters? I can think of dozens of ways to explain these powers in a whole variety of different situations.

I would just note that 4e has been pretty darn good about not letting one role bleed into another. There aren't powers that let non-leaders heal (paladins are really just about the only minor exception and it is hardly accidental).

There has to come a time when characters are depleted. Previous editions simply depleted the cleric of CLWs and CSWs and whatever. I don't really know what you're after. The characters can survive a certain amount of fighting and then they'll run out of resources and either win, get out of dodge, or die. I don't really see why one specific resource should work differently than others particularly. If parties relied on healing potions to keep them going then that would be the limiting factor, it all boils down to the same thing.

Sure, Gandalf had a restorative, I still want to see even ONE example in literature or any other fiction that wasn't a D&D novel where someone whips out a potion in the middle of a fight, chugs it down, and gets healed. I think fundamentally it is just more satisfying if the hero's own resolve is the source of the power to endure vs having it come in a bottle. Matter of taste I guess.

 

[KarinsDad]

I would just note that 4e has been pretty darn good about not letting one role bleed into another. There aren't powers that let non-leaders heal (paladins are really just about the only minor exception and it is hardly accidental).

Sorry, but are you kidding? Almost every non-leader class has at least one:

Assassin: Claim the Dead
Avenger: Renewing Strike
Barbarian: Life Thane Rage
Battlemind: Aspect of Elevated Harmony
Druid: Form of the Primeval Boar (pre-Essentials turning Druids into Leaders)
Fighter: Comeback Strike
Invoker: Death's Denial
Monk: Internal Power
Paladin: Paladins Judgment
Ranger: Wounded Beast
Sorcerer: Moon and the Stars
Swordmage: Rejuvenating Strike
Warden: Bear's Endurance
Warlock: Red Leeches of Nihal (I put this down as an example because it's temporary hit points which amount to the same thing, warlocks actually have several other actual healing powers)

Granted, many such powers are Dailies, but not all of them. And some of these classes have a dozen or more such powers.

Now, if you are talking healing powers that heal others, then yeah, that might be 10% of the 150 to 200 or so non-leader healing powers in the game. But, a lot of them still exist. Remember, a PC only has to have one of them in order to heal.

But compared to previous editions of the game, 4E is probably the most egregious about letting non-healers heal. There is a lot more role bleed over.

And the reason it happens in 4E is because everyone has powers. Everyone is a superhero. In previous editions, not everyone had spells.

There has to come a time when characters are depleted. Previous editions simply depleted the cleric of CLWs and CSWs and whatever. I don't really know what you're after. The characters can survive a certain amount of fighting and then they'll run out of resources and either win, get out of dodge, or die.

I'm after things like Artifacts or (expensive) Rituals that restore Healing Surges and/or possibly Daily powers (possibly with penalties associated with them such as cannot regain healing surges for a week or some such). The game allows someone to be brought back from the dead, but has no mechanisms for getting past 4 encounters per day. Huh?

I'm looking for MMMAAAGGGIIICCC!!!

BOOM, not wimper.

Sure, Gandalf had a restorative, I still want to see even ONE example in literature or any other fiction that wasn't a D&D novel where someone whips out a potion in the middle of a fight, chugs it down, and gets healed. I think fundamentally it is just more satisfying if the hero's own resolve is the source of the power to endure vs having it come in a bottle. Matter of taste I guess.

The Fountain of Youth

In Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, drinking from the Holy Grail

In "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe" (1950), Father Christmas gave Lucy a cordial

In "The Slithering Shadow" (Conan, 1933), there was a golden wine that restored vigor and repaired wounds, bringing Conan back from the brink of death to full health.

Granted, they aren't "drinking healing potions in the middle of combat", but then again, that doesn't happen too often in 4E either.


The issue with "the hero's own resolve" is that it's overplayed here. It's allowed to be "every single encounter" or in the case of Warlords (and even Bards), it is every single encounter.

It's the concept that wounds don't exist. We fight and fight, but we don't get wounded. We just get tired and then overcome being tired with personal resolve and cheerleader cheering up. Woo hoo! That concept is really over used in 4E and is not what I consider magical fantasy.

The one thing about 4E that I hope that they restore with 5E is the magic.

In 4E, most every PC has superpowers. Most every PC can heal. Most every PC has supernatural or magical ways to shrug off or avoid damage.

Every PC is a Jedi (i.e. with respect to displaying supernatural abilities).

It's not a matter of balancing the powers. It's a matter of segregating them.


One of the few things I like about Essentials is that some of the PCs now have most abilities that merely increase the umph of a melee basic attack without delving into supernatural effects.


Don't get me wrong. I enjoy playing 4E. I just find the roles and classes to be very overlapping, partially because most powers have supernatural or magical riders or effects. We can't just hit for damage, we have to also move foes or add bonuses and penalties to future rolls or yadda yadda yadda with almost every single power. There is also a ton of bookkeeping associated with all of these effects from most every single power / class feature / item / feat.


Syndrome (to Mr. Incredible): "And when I'm old and I've had my fun, I'll sell my inventions so that everyone can be superheroes. Everyone can be super. And when everyone's super, no one will be."

This is how I view 4E's magic. Everyone has it. Nearly every single monster (except minions for the most part). Every single PC. And they all have it in spades.