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D&D 5E So 5th edition is coming soon

Sorry, but are you kidding? Almost every non-leader class has at least one:

Assassin: Claim the Dead
Avenger: Renewing Strike
Barbarian: Life Thane Rage
Battlemind: Aspect of Elevated Harmony
Druid: Form of the Primeval Boar (pre-Essentials turning Druids into Leaders)
Fighter: Comeback Strike
Invoker: Death's Denial
Monk: Internal Power
Paladin: Paladins Judgment
Ranger: Wounded Beast
Sorcerer: Moon and the Stars
Swordmage: Rejuvenating Strike
Warden: Bear's Endurance
Warlock: Red Leeches of Nihal (I put this down as an example because it's temporary hit points which amount to the same thing, warlocks actually have several other actual healing powers)

Granted, many such powers are Dailies, but not all of them. And some of these classes have a dozen or more such powers.

All of which are MUCH more limited than any kind of healing your leader will provide. Look at Red Leeches of Nihal since you seem to like it... The power requires a standard action and occupies a daily slot to provide a bare HS worth of personal healing. The temp nature of the healing aside, it is a terrible power. Fighters have some similar powers, one of which actually allows to heal another PC, but again this is a bare HS worth of healing and requires a standard action. It is to put it bluntly a basically worthless power.
Now, if you are talking healing powers that heal others, then yeah, that might be 10% of the 150 to 200 or so non-leader healing powers in the game. But, a lot of them still exist. Remember, a PC only has to have one of them in order to heal.

Except pretty much invariably they require standard actions, take up slots better used for other things, etc. You're not going to get anything but the very most basic healing without being a leader and frankly it is almost never actually worth using 95% of these powers.

But compared to previous editions of the game, 4E is probably the most egregious about letting non-healers heal. There is a lot more role bleed over.

It is really not roll bleed over at all. Any 4e PC has Second Wind already. Most of the powers you can use which provide some form of healing are considerably WORSE than Second Wind. I hardly think this is stepping on the toes of the leader.

And the reason it happens in 4E is because everyone has powers. Everyone is a superhero. In previous editions, not everyone had spells.

And yet all the literature, myth, and other types of fiction from which D&D principally draws is rife with 'martial' heroes doing exactly these things. I find it to be entirely appropriate and 4e is vastly better at portraying these things than other editions have been (in 3.x there were options, but the costs were high or they required rather elaborate class poaching etc). I'm sorry, but your notion of some kind of divide between different types of 'magical' and 'non-magical' heroes simply doesn't hold up against the source material, nor do most players IME wish to be permanently consigned to "I hit it harder" just because they want to use a sword.

I'm after things like Artifacts or (expensive) Rituals that restore Healing Surges and/or possibly Daily powers (possibly with penalties associated with them such as cannot regain healing surges for a week or some such). The game allows someone to be brought back from the dead, but has no mechanisms for getting past 4 encounters per day. Huh?

I'm looking for MMMAAAGGGIIICCC!!!

BOOM, not wimper.

First of all, there's no hard and fast limitation of 4 encounters per day. This is entirely within the control of the DM. You want more encounters? Make them a bit weaker. You want restoration of daily resources, there are all kinds of options. DMG2 most certainly talks about possibilities like a 'fountain of healing' or whatnot. Artifacts are a totally blank slate, you can do ANYTHING with them. Make one up! What is WRONG with people these days that they can't simply drop what they want into their game? These things aren't covered in the PLAYER CHARACTER rules because they are simply not things that the players are supposed to be building around. They CAN get them, but that acquisition is strictly in the purview of the DM, where it really should be.

Honestly, where in AD&D were these kinds of things? I haven't read much of 3.x stuff, so I won't comment on that, but this kind of thing was ENTIRELY a DM resource in AD&D. I don't understand what you're complaining about. BOOM is "here's the DM's responsibility", so STEP UP!!!!

The Fountain of Youth

In Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, drinking from the Holy Grail

In "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe" (1950), Father Christmas gave Lucy a cordial

In "The Slithering Shadow" (Conan, 1933), there was a golden wine that restored vigor and repaired wounds, bringing Conan back from the brink of death to full health.

Granted, they aren't "drinking healing potions in the middle of combat", but then again, that doesn't happen too often in 4E either.

Exactly, it doesn't happen often in 4e BY DESIGN because they actually looked at the rules and the sources for the game and said "gosh, this doesn't fit in well with the genre" and reduced its importance in the game.

The issue with "the hero's own resolve" is that it's overplayed here. It's allowed to be "every single encounter" or in the case of Warlords (and even Bards), it is every single encounter.

Until the PC exhausts his reserves, yes. Honestly, go back to the source material again. It is REPLETE with heroes getting back up and going on with nothing but grit. Heck, REAL LIFE is replete with these kinds of stories. Sorry, I don't even consider this kind of thing terribly unrealistic within the basic context of the game and its abstractions. It certainly fits in quite well with the action adventure genre.

It's the concept that wounds don't exist. We fight and fight, but we don't get wounded. We just get tired and then overcome being tired with personal resolve and cheerleader cheering up. Woo hoo! That concept is really over used in 4E and is not what I consider magical fantasy.

Except of course that hit points are abstract, so that is a rather dubious interpretation to start with. Secondly I see wounded heroes going on with nary a wince all over the place. Bruce Willis and Jackie Chan run around with bandages in practically every movie either of them ever made. Slap a bandage on it when you get a chance and off you go, good as new.

The one thing about 4E that I hope that they restore with 5E is the magic.

In 4E, most every PC has superpowers. Most every PC can heal. Most every PC has supernatural or magical ways to shrug off or avoid damage.

Every PC is a Jedi (i.e. with respect to displaying supernatural abilities).

It's not a matter of balancing the powers. It's a matter of segregating them.


One of the few things I like about Essentials is that some of the PCs now have most abilities that merely increase the umph of a melee basic attack without delving into supernatural effects.


Don't get me wrong. I enjoy playing 4E. I just find the roles and classes to be very overlapping, partially because most powers have supernatural or magical riders or effects. We can't just hit for damage, we have to also move foes or add bonuses and penalties to future rolls or yadda yadda yadda with almost every single power. There is also a ton of bookkeeping associated with all of these effects from most every single power / class feature / item / feat.


Syndrome (to Mr. Incredible): "And when I'm old and I've had my fun, I'll sell my inventions so that everyone can be superheroes. Everyone can be super. And when everyone's super, no one will be."

This is how I view 4E's magic. Everyone has it. Nearly every single monster (except minions for the most part). Every single PC. And they all have it in spades.

Yeah, we'll never agree. The last thing on earth I want to see is the return to the days where if you picked up a sword you were instantly turned into a second-rate lackey. 4e is far more true to its source material and fantasy tradition IMHO than any previous edition. I think they did a rather brilliant job of this actually. It is a magical fantasy world, magic is part of everything, and the personal 'magic' of the bad-assed sword wielding warrior is a welcome and LONG overdue addition to the game.

All I can really say is some 5e retro game where we have to go back to the old days because hey Gygax didn't do it the 4e way is NOT something I'd touch with a 10' pole.

I'd be OK with some way of organizing the rules so that there ARE a set of plausible mundane mechanics that can provide a core set that you can access easily. Forcing players to be limited to nothing but that simply because they picked the 'wrong' character concept is completely uninteresting to me.
 

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KarinsDad

Adventurer
All of which are MUCH more limited than any kind of healing your leader will provide. Look at Red Leeches of Nihal since you seem to like it... The power requires a standard action and occupies a daily slot to provide a bare HS worth of personal healing. The temp nature of the healing aside, it is a terrible power. Fighters have some similar powers, one of which actually allows to heal another PC, but again this is a bare HS worth of healing and requires a standard action. It is to put it bluntly a basically worthless power.

Gaining your healing surge in temporary hit points with an Immediate Interrupt is worthless?

It's not a standard action, so you must have been looking at something else.

Except pretty much invariably they require standard actions, take up slots better used for other things, etc. You're not going to get anything but the very most basic healing without being a leader and frankly it is almost never actually worth using 95% of these powers.

Claim the Dead is a per encounter healing surge +15 temp hit points free action. That's worthless?

Victory Hymn is a per encounter standard action attack which allows a healing surge and a free saving throw.

Psychic Feast is a per encounter healing surge worth of temporary hit points free action without spending a surge.

Inspired Resurgence is a per encounter free action healing surge plus shift 3.

Earth Hold's Rebuke is a per encounter standard action attack which allows a healing surge.

Rejuvenating Strike is a per encounter standard action attack which allows a healing surge.

These are worthless?

It is really not roll bleed over at all. Any 4e PC has Second Wind already. Most of the powers you can use which provide some form of healing are considerably WORSE than Second Wind. I hardly think this is stepping on the toes of the leader.

Believe that if you want. The ones I listed above don't require Standard Actions unless they also get an attack.

It's not as potent of healing as a Leader, but it's still healing. It's still role bleed over.

No matter how you cut it, most 1E through 3.5 PCs couldn't heal themselves and having the ability to heal yourself is always a useful thing, and with most of the non-leader healing powers, stronger than Second Wind.

And yet all the literature, myth, and other types of fiction from which D&D principally draws is rife with 'martial' heroes doing exactly these things. I find it to be entirely appropriate and 4e is vastly better at portraying these things than other editions have been (in 3.x there were options, but the costs were high or they required rather elaborate class poaching etc). I'm sorry, but your notion of some kind of divide between different types of 'magical' and 'non-magical' heroes simply doesn't hold up against the source material, nor do most players IME wish to be permanently consigned to "I hit it harder" just because they want to use a sword.

Examples? And please don't use Sorcerer Kings or demi-deities like Elric. That's magic.

What supernatural things did Conan or Fafhrd or Kull or the Three Musketeers do on their own? Yes, they had a ton of stamina. But isn't that why the martial PCs tend to get more hit points? That's not a reason for healing powers.

And, I didn't say anything about players being consigned to hitting harder. That's your spin on what I said.

I'm merely opposed to non-Leaders getting a lot of healing powers and martial PCs getting powers that are "supernatural non-martial-like" like teleport or darkvision or even Come and Get It.

First of all, there's no hard and fast limitation of 4 encounters per day. This is entirely within the control of the DM. You want more encounters? Make them a bit weaker. You want restoration of daily resources, there are all kinds of options. DMG2 most certainly talks about possibilities like a 'fountain of healing' or whatnot. Artifacts are a totally blank slate, you can do ANYTHING with them. Make one up! What is WRONG with people these days that they can't simply drop what they want into their game? These things aren't covered in the PLAYER CHARACTER rules because they are simply not things that the players are supposed to be building around. They CAN get them, but that acquisition is strictly in the purview of the DM, where it really should be.

I'm a player in my main game. I don't get to add Fountains to the DM's world.

What is WRONG with people these days that they can't simply understand that some players don't want to go into a large dungeon and be forced to take an extended rest after 20 minutes?

Sorry, but your way of playing (x encounters per day where x is typically < 7) isn't the only desired way and if someone disagrees with you, that's ok and there is nothing wrong with that person. It's ok to want to go into a dungeon and have a dozen encounters without resting for the day.

Exactly, it doesn't happen often in 4e BY DESIGN because they actually looked at the rules and the sources for the game and said "gosh, this doesn't fit in well with the genre" and reduced its importance in the game.

Horse hockey.

Just because the design of the game came out a certain way doesn't mean that other ideas do not fit within the genre. It means that the designers came up with their own idea of the game. It's not the only possible good design.

Until the PC exhausts his reserves, yes. Honestly, go back to the source material again. It is REPLETE with heroes getting back up and going on with nothing but grit.

Replete? Examples? You seem to make a lot of claims without good examples. That's called generalizing or even stereotyping.

Except of course that hit points are abstract, so that is a rather dubious interpretation to start with. Secondly I see wounded heroes going on with nary a wince all over the place. Bruce Willis and Jackie Chan run around with bandages in practically every movie either of them ever made. Slap a bandage on it when you get a chance and off you go, good as new.

I'm playing D&D. Not watching a non-fantasy action film. Not the same genre IMO. In fact, I have a bit of an issue with every genre and it's brother being shoe horned into D&D.

Yeah, we'll never agree. The last thing on earth I want to see is the return to the days where if you picked up a sword you were instantly turned into a second-rate lackey. 4e is far more true to its source material and fantasy tradition IMHO than any previous edition. I think they did a rather brilliant job of this actually. It is a magical fantasy world, magic is part of everything, and the personal 'magic' of the bad-assed sword wielding warrior is a welcome and LONG overdue addition to the game.

Yes. And magic is no longer special when every PC can heal themselves and do a lot of supernatural things. It's mundane. It's pedestrian, ordinary, natural. It becomes the main laws of physics intead of "MAGIC". This is my main issue with Eberron. Magic becomes mundane there.

I don't have a problem with martial PCs doing extra-ordinary things with their bodies. Jump far. Dodge attacks. Flip over a foe and land in the square behind him. It's a bit much when they become Wuxia experts, but even that's acceptable to some level.

I mind when they can affect foes at range with things like Come and Get It (straight out of video games and nowhere near any original source material, pulling mobs to get aggro). Taunting or mind affecting or telekinesis or whatever you want to call it.

All I can really say is some 5e retro game where we have to go back to the old days because hey Gygax didn't do it the 4e way is NOT something I'd touch with a 10' pole.

Except that I didn't talk about that. Again, your spin on the direction I am going in with this.
 

mneme

Explorer
As a non-fan of Warlords ( "GET UP!!! I don't care if you are unconscious." ) and a non-fan of Battleragers ( "I'm invincible!" ), I really dislike the martial power source being used for things like Teleports, Healing (or temporary hit points which is quasi-healing), Invisibility, Flight, etc.

Er, say what?

Healing--sure, 4e defined healing such that everyone got to play; quite deliberately. And temp hp are the same category, except that they can make even more sense for martial powers.

But there is -one- purely martial power that lets someone teleport -- Mountebank's Flight, a 22nd level utility (and one that plays into the Rogue's theme, and is conditional on someone teleporting). There are two Eladrin/Martial PPs that let them teleport -- but for Eladrin, teleporting -is- martial. And some fighter/Eladrin powers that let them teleport, but see last sentence. And...that's it.

Invisiblity? Flight? Ok, you've got me on invisible, as Hoard Raider's e12 definitely shouldn't make you invisible; that's just silly. Of course, 3e rogues could become invisible too (Hide in Plain Sight), so maybe not so much.

OTOH, I see all of two "martial" powers that grant flight, and both are really racial (Teifling and Dragonborn) powers--and ones that require spending your PP on a quasi-racial PP! So, um, no.
 

triqui

Adventurer
What is WRONG with people these days that they can't simply understand that some players don't want to go into a large dungeon and be forced to take an extended rest after 20 minutes?

Sorry, but your way of playing (x encounters per day where x is typically < 7) isn't the only desired way and if someone disagrees with you, that's ok and there is nothing wrong with that person. It's ok to want to go into a dungeon and have a dozen encounters without resting for the day.

Those two bolded sentences explain why everybody has access to healing (mostly self-healing, but also healing others). Some players want to be able to go into a large dungeon and do several encounters in a row. No "way of playing" should be "bad-wrong-fun". And some people like "conan-style" adventures (or LotR for that matter), where there is no magic, or no "divine magic".

No single power source, role, or class should be a "must have". Groups shouldn't be shoehorned to "let's roll who is the healbot this time". If nobody want's to be a cleric, or nobody wants to be a leader of any kind, they shouldn't be forced to. If a group wants to play a "martial only" (or arcane only, or divine only) campaign, they should be able to. No player, DM or group should be forced by the rules to play a character they don´t like just becouse it's implicitly required by the rules

AND those players and groups should be able to play the game just fine. Including doing more than one encounter in a row.

EDIT: on the other hand, I really agree with you with the healing surges/dailies being refreshed "each game day" instead of "game sessions", or "plot milestones" is a game design flaw. It's an issue for lots of groups that dont play the standard "X encounters per day", whatever "x" is the design goal. It's for your group, that don't want to go back to sleep before the 5th encounter in the dungeon, and it's for my group, as we often only have 1 combat per session (and thus dailies become broken, becouse they are effectively just souped up encounters). Game resources (like powers and healing surges) should be independent of in-game time. They should be related to encounters, plots, and levels. Since Halo, most videogames had already made the transition to "per encounter" resources. Dragon Age videogame has a good starting point for it imo. That would make groups able to play as many encounters per day as they find fun (from my group 1 to some other people 8 or 10 in a row).
 
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KarinsDad

Adventurer
Of course, 3e rogues could become invisible too (Hide in Plain Sight), so maybe not so much.

I didn't like it for 3E either. In fact, two of the most annoying campaigns we played in was when we had a Rogue with Hide in Plain Sight. It just felt off when a PC is so immune to something (in HiPS case, vision which is critically important).

I do have to say "good riddance" to that in 4E. ;)
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Those two bolded sentences explain why everybody has access to healing (mostly self-healing, but also healing others). Some players want to be able to go into a large dungeon and do several encounters in a row. No "way of playing" should be "bad-wrong-fun". And some people like "conan-style" adventures (or LotR for that matter), where there is no magic, or no "divine magic".

No single power source, role, or class should be a "must have". Groups shouldn't be shoehorned to "let's roll who is the healbot this time". If nobody want's to be a cleric, or nobody wants to be a leader of any kind, they shouldn't be forced to. If a group wants to play a "martial only" (or arcane only, or divine only) campaign, they should be able to. No player, DM or group should be forced by the rules to play a character they don´t like just becouse it's implicitly required by the rules

AND those players and groups should be able to play the game just fine. Including doing more than one encounter in a row.

EDIT: on the other hand, I really agree with you with the healing surges/dailies being refreshed "each game day" instead of "game sessions", or "plot milestones". It's an issue for lots of groups that dont play the standard "X encounters per day". It's for your group, that don't want to go back to sleep before the 5th encounter in the dungeon, and it's for my group, as we often only have 1 combat per session (and thus dailies become broken, becouse they are effectively just souped up encounters). Game resources (like powers and healing surges) should be independent of in-game time. They should be related to encounters, plots, and levels.

I agree with everything that you wrote here.

But, it's the fact that Healing Potions are so lame that really forces groups to have a Leader in them since most of the non-Leader healing powers don't start until level 7 or higher. Allowing non-Leaders to have healing powers doesn't really address the issue of playing with any group makeup that you bring up because it does show up so late in the game.

The game as designed is the issue, not the bleed over of healing. The game is designed to almost require a Leader in it. If the team doesn't have one, the DM really has to ratchet down his encounters (or hide his rolls and fudge) or they'll eventually walk into a TPK via strong DM dice rolls, and lousy player dice rolls. Leaders are the great "swinginess of encounters" equalizer.

This deficiency could be handled if there were a way to make Healing Potions stronger (e.g. the lowest level ones do a healing surge worth of healing instead of just 10 hit points, but only one healing potion could be used per PC per encounter).

I personally don't like the "wounds don't exist" rational for the concept of Warlords or Battleragers, but that's ok. I don't have to play them or allow them in any groups that I run.
 

I agree with everything that you wrote here.

But, it's the fact that Healing Potions are so lame that really forces groups to have a Leader in them since most of the non-Leader healing powers don't start until level 7 or higher. Allowing non-Leaders to have healing powers doesn't really address the issue of playing with any group makeup that you bring up because it does show up so late in the game.

The game as designed is the issue, not the bleed over of healing. The game is designed to almost require a Leader in it. If the team doesn't have one, the DM really has to ratchet down his encounters (or hide his rolls and fudge) or they'll eventually walk into a TPK via strong DM dice rolls, and lousy player dice rolls. Leaders are the great "swinginess of encounters" equalizer.

This deficiency could be handled if there were a way to make Healing Potions stronger (e.g. the lowest level ones do a healing surge worth of healing instead of just 10 hit points, but only one healing potion could be used per PC per encounter).

I personally don't like the "wounds don't exist" rational for the concept of Warlords or Battleragers, but that's ok. I don't have to play them or allow them in any groups that I run.

So, what you're really saying is that a group DOES need a leader to provide healing, so in actual practice there's little or no issue.

I think as far as encounters per day goes there is ALWAYS some limit. Unless you want to eliminate all daily resources entirely from the game there will be SOME point at which the characters have expended critical resources and need to recover them in some way. This has been an element of every version of D&D, a significant element. 4e was designed around making that break point be at about 5 encounters. A DM can tweak that. The 5 encounter set point is created by having encounters typically be a specific difficulty, the amount of resources granted at the start of the day to the characters, etc. Any of those 'knobs' can be dialed up or down somewhat to reach a different set point. That point can be somewhat different in different adventures, or the DM could pretty much consistently set it higher or lower overall. The point is that there will be SOME point where the party needs to rest.

Given the rather inescapable logic of all this I just can't understand how the way 4e organizes things matters from a game design perspective. Any hypothetical 5e that anyone designs is going to have the same issue to face. There will always be some sequence of potential encounters out there that any given party cannot take in a single sitting. If the DM wants a particular area to be run through without a long rest, then the DM will ALWAYS have to design that part of the adventure such that the desired pacing is achievable. This was as true in OD&D in 1974 as it is in 4e D&D right now today and would be in 5e D&D someday.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
So, what you're really saying is that a group DOES need a leader to provide healing, so in actual practice there's little or no issue.

That's true for 4E. It wasn't necessarily as true for 3.5 and earlier. Items could take the place of Leaders in those versions of the game.

I think as far as encounters per day goes there is ALWAYS some limit. Unless you want to eliminate all daily resources entirely from the game there will be SOME point at which the characters have expended critical resources and need to recover them in some way. This has been an element of every version of D&D, a significant element.

Yes, I agree. There is always a maximum limit. But, that limit increased as one went up in levels in earlier versions, it didn't stay the same (which I consider one of 4E's warts). In earlier versions, when my PC was traveling the planes, I wasn't forced to hole up in them as often (or necessarily at all).

Especially in 3E and 3.5 with Prestige Classes, it was pretty easy to save resources. The healer types could have Wand of Cure X Wounds and the spell slingers, especially Wizards, could have charged items as well.

Heck, I just played a Pathfinder game last fall where I ran a Mystic Theurge who had zero charged items, but never once ran out of spells. And we had some lengthier days (8 or 9 encounters on multiple days).

The 4E concept of "ohh, it's bad wrong fun" to play a game with Wands of Cure Light Wounds, so we will get rid of the concept is erroneous.

It was a ton of fun to play in 3.5 and earlier versions of the game with those. They freed up the Clerics and Druids to branch out more. Now, the number one thing I see in 4E is pacifist clerics and/or clerics taking powers like Healer's Mercy because nobody wants to use up a Standard for Second Wind or use up a Healing Surge for a Potion of Healing. I see it over and over again, it doesn't matter which Leader class.

There is almost an expectation that the Leader will handle almost all of the healing, so the other players don't have to worry about it (as per crappy potions and as per your comments that the non-Leader healing sucks). It's endemic in our 4E gaming community culture.

I do see some slight effort by players to throw around some temporary hit points and/or debuff foes a bit, but that doesn't really make up for true healing. If the foe is at -2 to hit, a 16 on the die is typically still going to hit.

4e was designed around making that break point be at about 5 encounters. A DM can tweak that. The 5 encounter set point is created by having encounters typically be a specific difficulty, the amount of resources granted at the start of the day to the characters, etc. Any of those 'knobs' can be dialed up or down somewhat to reach a different set point. That point can be somewhat different in different adventures, or the DM could pretty much consistently set it higher or lower overall. The point is that there will be SOME point where the party needs to rest.

Sure there will be a point where PCs have to rest. You and I do not disagree on that.

But the difference is that the players have little input in the process now.

The players can no longer really decide to save resources and spend their gold on healing items in order have 15 encounters in a day. Buying an item in 4E for +1 item bonus to a healing surge is pretty darn weak.

Now, only the DM can set up the game for 15 encounters and in order to do it, he has to bend over backwards to dial down the encounters and/or have ways to renew resources.

As a player, I like the option to decide the destiny of my own PC. Part of that is the option to decide to craft/purchase 10 items and stuff them in my bag of holding so that I am always prepared for any scenario, including a large dungeon with many encounters in it.

Given the rather inescapable logic of all this I just can't understand how the way 4e organizes things matters from a game design perspective. Any hypothetical 5e that anyone designs is going to have the same issue to face. There will always be some sequence of potential encounters out there that any given party cannot take in a single sitting. If the DM wants a particular area to be run through without a long rest, then the DM will ALWAYS have to design that part of the adventure such that the desired pacing is achievable. This was as true in OD&D in 1974 as it is in 4e D&D right now today and would be in 5e D&D someday.

Except that this was not as true for earlier versions of the game. One of the elements of the game that I greatly enjoyed as a player was that I could prepare ahead of time with "go to the well" options. I could craft scrolls, and wands, and potions that allowed me as a player to shore up our resources as needed.

4E does not have this (it has potions, but they are pretty lame) and I consider it to be a game design weakness.

Instead of making the consumable items so weak for the vast majority of levels that they are hardly ever used in the game, they needed to design them to have good utility at the levels for which they are crafted and weaker utility as the PCs advance in level in order to balance out their cost vs. utility.
 

cignus_pfaccari

First Post
That's true for 4E. It wasn't necessarily as true for 3.5 and earlier. Items could take the place of Leaders in those versions of the game.

Unless, of course, you needed in-combat healing. The CLW wand isn't going to help in-combat past about 5th level or so. It also imposes its own version of the short rest as you use up charges, each d8+1 taking a round.

You could get potions of up to Cure Serious Wounds, IIRC, but that's 3d8+5, which is on average 18 points. And remember that you can roll low, too. It might be best to make the potion at full caster level, since that's the only serious in-combat healing you're going to get, though that also triples the price, and found potions come in at minimal caster level unless otherwise specified.

If you want something with more oomph in a potion, you have to find a Master Alchemist from Magic of Faerun, which may not even be allowed, or if it is, requires a PC to take it just to keep you in potions of Cure Critical Wounds and Heal, since the DM doesn't necessarily need to have an NPC available for this.

Scrolls require that either the spell be on your spell list, or that you have Use Magic Device, so they're only open to characters who're built to use them.


Personally, I didn't really like the "healer in a stick" mentality of 3rd edition. I do like the current 4e paradigm, where you have some limited self-healing available, and much more healing from a leader-type, who's actually having fun by beating things over the head with a hammer and healing at the same time.

Now, if you wanted to seriously have 15 encounters in a row* in 4e, and wanted to have healing in a can, what I'd propose is making a surgeless version of the healing potions available...but at significantly higher item level than the surge-requiring versions. Like, have the item level match the next highest surge-requiring potion. So, the cordial of healing is 15th level, and the cordial of vitality is 25th level. This is so you can have the cheaper stuff still use your surges, but if you want to preserve those, you can buy or use the expensive stuff.

* - Which wasn't going to happen in 3e because your resources aren't just healing-limited. Primary casters will run out of useful spells, barbarians will run out of rages, and so on. I suppose if you re-defined "encounter" to be "something that goes down with the slightest amount of effort," it could work. But you certainly aren't going to get 15 encounters' worth of full-on fights in a day.

Brad
 

Reigan

First Post
Don't forget to replace the fighter with a bag of holding and the rogue with a wand of knock while your at it.

Let us all bow down before the mighty god-wizard.
 

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