So a Keen Rapier Crits on....

[Wish]

The big reason why they shouldn't stack is to cut down on certain abilities that trigger only off a critical hit, especially vorpal. A 3.0 weapon master with a keen vorpal falchion had a roughly 50% chance of taking your head with every swing, unless you had a superior armor class. With vorpal changed in 3.5, there's not much of a game balance reason.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Dude shouldn't be going flaming burst if he's going keen route: put those points into +2 additional on the weapon, power attack for an additional +2, and add an average of 6 points of damage to each hit before crits are taken into account .

We tried telling him that. He just said "Thog like burny sword!"

You can try explaining that it's best to take his burny sword away if you like. I'll be over there.

-Hyp.

 

[Dakhran the Dark]

I still have nightmares about the fellow player with a +1 keen thundering shocking burst falchion. Crit on 15-20, crits do 4d4+1d10+1d8+2+(3*STR). I can't imagine what that would be like if keen and improved crit stacked, especially if he swapped the falchion out for a scythe, doing 8d4+3d10+3d8+4+(6*STR) on 18-20...and then became a weapon master...

 

[Stalker0]

Also keep in mind its still only an autohit on a 20. If you have a 5-20 crit range, just because you rolled a 5 doesn't mean its a crit threat. That 5 has to be a hit to count.

So if your range is 12-20 for example and his AC is 20. You have a +7. On a 12, that's a 19. You don't hit, so its not even a crit threat.

 

[Chairman7w]

Aaaahhh, good point. I hadn't even considered that! :\

Also keep in mind its still only an autohit on a 20. If you have a 5-20 crit range, just because you rolled a 5 doesn't mean its a crit threat. That 5 has to be a hit to count.

So if your range is 12-20 for example and his AC is 20. You have a +7. On a 12, that's a 19. You don't hit, so its not even a crit threat.

 

[Crothian]

Also keep in mind its still only an autohit on a 20. If you have a 5-20 crit range, just because you rolled a 5 doesn't mean its a crit threat. That 5 has to be a hit to count.

So if your range is 12-20 for example and his AC is 20. You have a +7. On a 12, that's a 19. You don't hit, so its not even a crit threat.

Right which means in 3.0 that every hit was a crit to threat in many cases. It made it too easy, there should be a middle ground between hitting and threat to crit.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

That is a good point Crothian. It does strike me as poor design for a miss/hit/crit sub-system to be replaced by a miss/crit sub-system, given the 12+ crit is so close to the expected hit % for a stock pc vs an equal CR foe.

 

[argo]

I still have nightmares about the fellow player with a +1 keen thundering shocking burst falchion. Crit on 15-20, crits do 4d4+1d10+1d8+2+(3*STR). I can't imagine what that would be like if keen and improved crit stacked, especially if he swapped the falchion out for a scythe, doing 8d4+3d10+3d8+4+(6*STR) on 18-20...and then became a weapon master...

You know, seems like most people don't have a problem with keen+Improved Crit stacking when we are talking about the guy dual-wielding kukris, or the rapier wielder, or heck even the power attacking greatsword weilder usually gets a pass. And with good reason, none of those builds break the game. Ah, but the falchion, the falchion, that always comes up in this one discussion. I'm convinced that Andy Collins must have had some nightmare player who used a falchion in his game. That one combination of a weapon and the right feats seems to put the fear of god in a lot of folk ....

.... which is of course why the only logical course of action is to leave the stats of the falchion alone and nuter the keen+Improved Crit combo... :\


I mean really, I do think that 3.5 is an improvement on the 3.0 rules but seriously, there are a few of the changes that really seem to be a case of trying to fix a single broken combo by nutering not the least common part of the combo but the most common part. Like trying to fix the nastyness that was 3.0 Archmage-with-spelcasting-prodigy by nutering the Spell Focus feat ....

 

[argo]

That is a good point Crothian. It does strike me as poor design for a miss/hit/crit sub-system to be replaced by a miss/crit sub-system, given the 12+ crit is so close to the expected hit % for a stock pc vs an equal CR foe.

I understand yours and Crothian's point. However there is also the alternative point of view that having a high-level warrior (Improved Crit has a preq of BAB +8) whose every successful hit is a threat is a good mechanical way to represent a "weaponmaster" type character. In other words what is the in-game, descriptive difference between how a 1st level guy fights and how an 8th level guy fights? The 1st level guy trys to ram his sword into your guts as hard as he can, the 8th level guy opens your jugular vein with a flick of his wrist.


Not saying that that is the only way to look at things. Just that looking at things in that way makes the "every successful hit is a threat" issue not seem so out-of-place.

Later.

 

[Lazybones]

Don't forget that in 3.5e you get the added benefit of either a free feat (if you have a keen weapon) or an extra +1 of weapon power (if you have Imp.Crit).

I have a player with a 3.0 weaponmaster(rapier) in my current NWN group, and he whips out an obsene amount of damage with his crit-on-12+ attacks. Of course, he's set up to have high damage bonuses through moderate strength (with a long-lasting 3.0 Bull's Strength) and a +5 courtesy of the wizard's Greater Magic Weapon (again, before they nerfed that spell somewhat in 3.5). I have to admit I also first though of the falchion when I started reading this thread, especially with the 2x on 2H Power Attacks in 3.5e. I am sure SKR's analysis is accurate but a high-level falchion-weilder (given than in 3.5e AC almost never keeps up with AB in the higher levels, or at least as far as I've seen) can almost always PA for some serious damage on a crit.