So, about Expertise...

He's blatantly mistaken that his characters won't auto-pick it? What, are you gonna Jedi mind-trick him into taking it every time he hits level 16?

Actually, I missed the 'my' and read it as 'characters with a starting stat of 18+'.

So, he's not mistaken in it being autopick for him, perhaps. It _should_ logically and mathematically be autopick for any character of any stat once it hits +2 at level 15.

Not taking it once it's +2 attack is most likely either being stubborn (well, it's broken so I won't take it - actually it doesn't even fit my RP concept to hit more often so there's no way I could take it), uninformed (What feat? Oh, haven't seen that), foolish (huh, +2 attack is no big deal, why would I want to hit more, I enjoy complaining about missing), or crazy (Yah, man, can't take expertise man, cause then the man is gonna know what I'm doing yeah, can't let that happen, yeah). Of the 9 feats someone has at 16th, I'd be surprised if even two of them are better than it. Even completely support-focused Leaders have to hit a lot of the time.

Like, let's take a rogue who only needs a 4 to hit usually, does ~40 damage on average and compare dropping Backstabber (3 damage per hit, and 6 extra 5% of the time, one of his better feats) to +2 attack (which he hardly needs if he's hitting on 4s).
Backstabber: ~34 DPR (40 * .85)
Expertise: ~34.865 DPR (36.7 * .95)

Hardly a huge increase, but that's dropping one of the "must have" rogue feats (3d6->3d8 on SA) - and still increasing... but damage is not just what expertise does. It makes it more likely for his stun, daze, knockout, slide, etc attacks to land. If anything, that's probably more valuable than the damage increase - the damage is practically free at that point.

You can do the same test with Hammer Rhythm, Superior Weapon Proficiency, etc. Even Dwarven Weapon Training for many characters, which is already better than two feats put together for effect. And that's even before it hits +3 attack.
 

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Well, I suppose if your dnd games have no combat or the combats are all against enemies four or more levels lower than you, it's possible it wouldn't make sense. The latter really shouldn't happen, but it could, so carry right on if that's your groups' shtick.

For non-combat games... with 9 feats to spend on skill training, focus, etc... you might be running out of noncombat options _anyways_ which would still make this a viable choice at 16th for your Sleep or Curse of the Golden Mist or other attack power that only incapacitates, making it possible to use in negotations ;)
 

This is reminding me of 3.x arguments like "the Cleric isn't overpowered because I can still have fun playing a fighter." Well, sure, but that's not what people are arguing. The point is that any character without this feat simply won't be as efficient as those that do. That's all that needs to be considered when judging its power.

*sigh* The "I can have fun without it" is not the argument I'm making at all.

I'm saying that there are anumber of reasons not to take this feat, and your character may in fact not be worse of mechanically across the whole spectrum of the game because you don't have this feat.

Put 2 characters with the same equipment and the same attack stat and attacks side by side and the one with this feat will be marginally better at hitting in combat. The size of that margin will depend on the value of the defences the monsters they are fighting have.

However taking this feat necassarily limits your other options by a single feat (as does taking any other feat) and that might not be enough of a difference.

Consider the argument that this feat is better than say Astral Fire. If we have 2 characters with the same attack bonuses aside from this feat (or its implement equivalent), and one has this feat and the other Astral Fire and all their strongest (not just damage but conditions etc) attacks are fire or radiant. When these characters are fighting Creature X with no resistance to Radiant or Fire, the one with this feat will hit more often and do slightly more damage etc across a number of battles. Now take the same two characters and pit them against a creature with resistance to their attack type (ie fire or radiant) the one who has more raw damage will come out slightly in front.

Now mathematically it is entirely likely that the PC with the feat is better, but every time "number of hits" matters less than "effectiveness of hits" the other PC comes out better. If the margin between "number of hits" is small I'm not that worried about it - its still a viable build option not to have the feat. Once the margin starts becoming large (say they had at least 3 difference in their stats before the higher one took the feat) then it matters more.

I contend that for characters with 18 or 20 in their attack stat this feat will remain an attractive option to improve general effectiveness, but will not be a must have. For characters with 16 (or lower!) in their attack stat this feat is a godsend, its not necassarily the first feat they take but its going to be on the list in a big way.
 

Consider the argument that this feat is better than say Astral Fire. If we have 2 characters with the same attack bonuses aside from this feat (or its implement equivalent), and one has this feat and the other Astral Fire and all their strongest (not just damage but conditions etc) attacks are fire or radiant. When these characters are fighting Creature X with no resistance to Radiant or Fire, the one with this feat will hit more often and do slightly more damage etc across a number of battles. Now take the same two characters and pit them against a creature with resistance to their attack type (ie fire or radiant) the one who has more raw damage will come out slightly in front.

As the resistance makes their damage without Astral Fire approach 0, the feat definitely becomes less useful - though the status effects still trigger on hits, so you're comparing doing, say, 5 damage instead of 3 when you do hit, to say dazing more often... and the status effect might still win. That said, if they encounter resistance with such frequency as to make Astral Fire more useful than Implement Expertise, they should not be using such attacks at all (or possibly their DM has it out to get them and the DM should rejigger things)

its still a viable build option not to have the feat.

4e is remarkably good at not having people just suck because of build options, it's true. You could indeed have a rogue whose feats are entirely spent on weapon proficiencies in weapons he didn't use and compare to one who had weapon expertise, weapon focus, backstabber, etc... and the differences would be notable but not game breaking. I'm not sure I'd consider the first build to be "viable" just because it was still hitting pretty often and doing decent damage, even if it were... let's call it half as effective. I mean, half a rogue is still nice to have around.

I contend that for characters with 18 or 20 in their attack stat this feat will remain an attractive option to improve general effectiveness, but will not be a must have.

Could you clarify your definition of must have? For example, I'm not sure I could make a list of more than 2 feats per race/class/build for level 16 that were higher priority. I consider that must have. If the definition for must have is more like 'You gain an extra standard action every round' or 'Your basic attacks that cause damage also stun (save ends)', that would explain the disagreement.
 

Cool so that +1 to hit with my weapon its really going to rock my world when I'm sneaking past the guards... oh wait there's a situation it doesn't matter in. You know when factoring the opportunity cost of something you need to look beyond the proverbial end of your sword.
4E can be used for many things. However, as evidenced both by published modules and the guidelines for LFR module creation, 4E is primarily a combat game. Heck, the LFR guidelines recommend a minimum of two combats in a four hour module - with the average being 3 to 4. Trust me, I like feats like Skill Training...but it's not going to come up nearly as often as that +1 or more to hit.

BTW this is a problem I have with the "Math Gurus" lots of time is spent crunching numbers and comming to the conclusion that there should be an extra +1 at x-level or whatever. Many of my characters played in actual game player are needing <10 normally to hit. Rarely a 10-11.
There are people on both ends of the spectrum. For every super-optimized character that needs less than a 10 to hit, there's the unoptimized character (like the 14 STR Warlord I gamed with not too long ago) that is behind the curve. Furthermore, there's a lot of situations where imposed penalties will make it so you need a high roll to hit. Goblin Hexers are a great example of this in the Heroic tier, able to impose an effective -4 to hit.

The monster's AC going up will not significantly impact the game, and frankly the DM should be looking at the typical attacks of the party and determining monsters appropriately.
Which you can do in a home game, but not published modules and LFR modules. People buy a published module in part because WotC has supposedly done the balancing work for the DM. If the math behind the progression is problematic, then the module will have a different difficulty than is intended...and a feat (which by its nature is optional) is not the way to fix this problem.

But if the argument is that +1 hit is worth sacrificing all other options at x-level (lets say 5 as you can retrain a 4th level feat to Expertise when you supposedly need this pip the first time) then the trend would be that powers that give +2 attack would be premium powers and you would be taking ways to increase their damage or other effects with your feats religously.
Powers are used for two things - delivering damage, and delivering effects. Those that have a built-in bonus to hit have the trade off of lower damage and/or a lack of effects. The reason people want bonuses to hit, besides the frustration of missing an attack and having it do nothing, is to hit with the powers that deliver high damage and/or powerful status effects.

Sure my 20 Int Wizard hits more than my 18 Int one... but my 18 Int one has far more options and the same or better defences at the same level with the same equipment. Hence the opportunity cost of that extra +1 to hit and damage from my 20 Int was higher than it might appear on the surface.
Given that one of my first 4E experiments was the Iron Mage, I don't think that's a good example to prove your point.

My point is that the feat is not absolutely a must have feat. Its a good feat worth using a slot up on to improve the hit chance of your character if needed.
While 4E is flexible, the game is primarily designed for combat. The core of the combat system is a tiering of powers where the less often you can use them, the greater their effect. In such a system, a flat +1 to hit with all of your powers is very powerful.

The feat is clearly better than a conditional +1 to hit that does nothing else - duh.

Its not clearly better at first level than a feat that gives +1 to hit and damage with an at-will, your encounter and daily. (Tieflings only)

Its not clearly better than feats that have nothing to do with combat that I need for my character to develop as I see them.

Its not clearly better than Muti-class feats that add additional options and give skill training.
For combat, it's better than the first two options you list above. Yes, a Tiefling can theoretically do better if all of his attacks have the fire and/or fear keywords. Which is great until you encounter one of the more common resistances - fire resistance. Taking Hellfire Blood and building your entire character around it specializes you in such a way that you will be marginalized in some combats because of a lack of diversity in damage types. I don't consider +1 damage worth hamstringing a character against foes with fire resistance.

If your DM focuses on out-of-combat situations (and bravo for him if he does), then a +1 on attacks won't come up as often...but it still will come up frequently. If the DM avoids combat situations like the plague...why in the heck are you playing D&D? You should be playing a story-based game instead...and there are plenty on the market these days.


Yes its better than conditional attack bonuses, and I understand the basic math crunch of why its better than damage bonuses (you hit more so you damage more), but I suspect that isn't as absolutely true as the maths gurus want us to believe in actual game play (if only for fun factor - its hard to say as its moving into subjective realms).
You say "math gurus" like it's an insult. I'm certainly not a guru, but it doesn't take a lot of math skills to realize the essential points of their argument:
  • Combat is the most common situation for a character in a typical D&D game.
  • The game-changing powers are limited in their use (1/encounter or 1/day)
  • It becomes harder to hit as your level increases.
  • A flat +1 to hit means you're less likely to waste a limited resource.
  • The game offers many feats that give situational bonuses, that are less valuable than an all-the-time bonus.
  • By mid-heroic tier, a character has enough feats to cover their essentials, and should look at taking a feat that will improve their effectiveness in the most common situation in the game.
When talking "opportunity cost" one needs to look at the whole picture, not just a little part of it.
I have. You may not agree with my conclusion, but I have.
 

The worst thing about this feat is that it penalizes players who aren't into math. Our boy Noob McRoleplay, who doesn't understand why attack bonus is important so he plays an eladrin starlock with a 15 in both Con and Ch, might skip this feat because it's boring. But his fellow player Minmax McMunchkin, who is a halfling rogue with Dex 20 and rogue weapon talent (daggers) and who basically sneak attacks constantly, is going to snatch up this feat very early on. This makes the power-gap between the two characters even worse. This is the epitome of imbalance.

Fortunately this particular feat is not the end of the world (there are numerous ways to easily fix this imbalance) but it represents to me the sort of broken rule that I was hoping 4e would be moving away from.

-- 77IM
 

I'm going to just give it as a bonus to my players effectively, and for the home game I'm in it's possible the DM will follow suit since he's one of my players. For LFR games, though... it's frustrating cause it's basically further forcing weapon specialization and it's a tax that I need to figure out a point in all of my character's progressions that I'll take it.

I feel especially bad for my friend playing the swordmage - two feats for him.
 

An easy fix came to my mind:

it seems, the bonus is primarily needed to get the power bonuses stick on the target... what about making weapon expertise a power bonus?

it sounds strange, but this could be wha is needed...
this could help players in parties without leaders or for the leader himself...

or you could just make weapon expertise giving you an at-will power as a free or minor action to invoke this bonus...
 

I keep thinking about this, but even if this is not the first feat you get, after 2-3 feats you need to take to enforce your role, this is going to be the feat to take. Let's take a look at a few stereotypes.

If you are a striker, you might start out with a feat or two to boost your damage like backstabber or racial weapon training. But by the time you are thinking about nimble blade, you're simply better off with weapon expertise.

If you are a defender, you might want to start with something to bbost your defenses, maybe toughness, maybe an upgrade in armor. But when you start thinking about a boost to your combat challenge attacks or opportunity attacks, you are again simply better off taking weapon expertise.

For a leader, you might want to start with some boost to your healing, if you are front line maybe a boost to your defense. And again shortly after
you hit 3rd or 5th level when you have enough encounter and daily powers you really want to hit with, weapon or implement expertise becomes your immediate priority.

For a controller, I can see many of them wanting to start out with implement mastery right out of the gate. Their "control" role is directly proportional to how well they can hit.

I think however much you want to resist, this feat is just a matter of "when" you want your +1 (or +2). At this point, I'm inclined to just make the feat free at 5th level. I don't see much point in making my players feel like they are getting docked a feat.
 

Consider the argument that this feat is better than say Astral Fire. If we have 2 characters with the same attack bonuses aside from this feat (or its implement equivalent), and one has this feat and the other Astral Fire and all their strongest (not just damage but conditions etc) attacks are fire or radiant. When these characters are fighting Creature X with no resistance to Radiant or Fire, the one with this feat will hit more often and do slightly more damage etc across a number of battles. Now take the same two characters and pit them against a creature with resistance to their attack type (ie fire or radiant) the one who has more raw damage will come out slightly in front.
That depends on the amount of the resistance.

Now take into account that creatures without resistance to radiant or fire are more common than creatures with such resistance; that Astral Fire requires Dex 13, Cha 13 while Implement Expertise (reputedly) requires nothing; that Implement Expertise also works on any non-radiant, non-fire power you might have in store for just this occasion; and your argument seems to lose momentum.
 

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