So, any consensus on PHB2 powerhouses?

[DerekSTheRed]

My experience with the Dragon Sorcerer is that it's a bit of a glass cannon. All of his blasts are blast 3 but also hit allies. That makes it really hard to setup. Inevitably, he's pulled out away from the defenders and isolated making him a target for more attacks.

The DS has worse hit points and worse AC than the warlock (thanks to concealment) and the Chaos Sorcerer can stay safely in the back and hit multiple opponents randomly at least as often as the Dragon Sorcerer can get multiple opponents bunched together. There's a trade off there in damage vs. survivability in comparison to the other arcane strikers.

 

[Legildur]

I would split brutal scoundrel rogue and arful dodger in this list. The brutal scoudrel rogue often gets +3 damage over artful dodger, and that's a significant difference.

I know it's been pointed out earlier in this thread, but care needs to be taken over looking at damage output only. I'm enjoying a lot of the movement powers available to my artful dodger rogue that enable him to help set up the battlefield and particularly to look after the squishies when something gets into the back line.

Bait and Switch was a saviour on Saturday night when the wizard was caught in a dead end and I was able to 'switch' with the duegar that was wailing on him and act as a meat shield for a round or two until other help arrived.

 

[Felon]

My guess: The devs hate the magic users. Before you attack me as a wizard whiner, I'd like to point out that Mike Mearls did state he liked playing martial characters better.

However, the conditions, orbs, etc, I think are supposed to make up for this.

EDIT: Not to diss anyone with "the devs hat the magic users" comment. I'd guess some of it is a fear of the OMG casters of bygone days.

I certainly hope it's not simple favoritism. If I could venture a guess, their thinking was probably that implement powers would offer all kinds of neat magical effects that the weapon powers wouldn't. But in practice, that didn't happen--or at least most folks don't seem to think weapon powers have less impressive effects than implement powers. Although you're not likely to see a martial power with the teleportation keyword, by and large most folks can accept a "shift yourself" or "slide target" effect as being comparable to a teleport effect--certainly nothing worth trading off pure damage for.

So, my gut feeling is that they don't have an answer beyond "whoops". It's just another 4e design brain fart that somehow made it to print after months of R&D, even though a lot of us were able to spot the imbalance right away (q.v. twin strike vs. careful strike).

The main reason that [W] powers are outstripping implement powers is that you can spend multiple feats to make your weapon powers better (i.e. you can spend feats to get superior weapons) and there are weapon powers that allow you to attack the same target multiple times, allowing you to stack your static damage bonuses.

The developers are aware of the issue I think.

For one thing, I see several feats in Arcane Power that will allow implement users to spend extra feats to increase their damage like weapon powers users can currently do.

If you'd like to discuss more details of Arcane Power and how it brings balance to the weapon/implement dichotomy, don't be fearful that the OP (me) will consider it a threadjack!

 

[Felon]

To me, I think this is the biggest mismatch caused by the PHBII. The sorcerer seems like he gets everything that the warlock does (as far as a striker/controller) but better.

The warlock has to spend actions and can only apply his curse one per round for 3.5 average damage. A sorc with 16 dex is always doing +3, and often to multiple creatures. The sorc powers are pretty strong as well, I just don't think the warlock stands up.

When I've seen Warlocks in combat, they seem to do decent damage, but I pretty much trampled over it as a Barbarian. They do seem to have problems, like being required to take the worst at-will ever, Eldritch Blast. (Seriously, it's not like Rangers have to take "Longbow Shot" for one of their two...though they might as well, I guess.)

These posts hit on a lot of problems with the 'lock. Clearly, Eldritch Blast should either have been given some rider effect so it actually DOES something that a longbow basic attack doesn't, or they should have given it to the warlock gratis, in addition to two other at-wills. Of course, that brings us to the next bonehead design element, which is making the warlock's second at-will a mandatory component of his pact. They knew mandating powers based on build was an unacceptable way to design every other class in the PHB, so why they thought it was a good idea here I can't fathom. I'm wondering if Arcane Power will even bother to grant new at-wills to the warlock (beyond those granted by new pacts).

The sorcerer does seem a trifle softer, however. Certainly doesn't have the durability of an infernal warlock.

 

[yesnomu]

Of course, that brings us to the next bonehead design element, which is making the warlock's second at-will a mandatory component of his pact. They knew mandating powers based on build was an unacceptable way to design every other class in the PHB, so why they thought it was a good idea here I can't fathom. I'm wondering if Arcane Power will even bother to grant new at-wills to the warlock (beyond those granted by new pacts).

Incidentally, that's a no. Eyes of the Vestige is the only new Warlock at-will. Seems pretty damn spiffy, though, with the customization of the vestiges.

I don't think a mandated at-will is that terrible an idea--the shaman and (to a lesser extent) druid both work out alright with some at-will constraint. Likewise, the Avenger is basically required to take their censure's at-will. But not getting a choice at all sucks horribly, I agree.

 

[Obryn]

I'm also curious about Swordmage being overpower. On my game the Swordmage looks like anybody else.

Heck, in play, I think our Shielding Swordmage is a little bit under-powered.

In most circumstances, he's not as good a defender as a Fighter is. He does a lot less damage. And he's extremely vulnerable to elemental resistances.

Now, his at-wills rock. Greenflame Blade is like super-cleave. But he deals so little damage, overall, that he's mainly a defender/controller, and not a striker at all.

With that said, Aegis of Shielding can be pretty abusive against an elite or solo with a swordmage's high AC. (Our swordmage has a 27 at 9th level, which gets really rough for some foes to hit.) As a result, he can contribute to grind in those cases - the foe basically has to attack him, but has a tough time hitting. I think it's fair to say that Aegis of Shielding is about the meanest thing you can do to an opponent at-will without making an attack roll.... but then again, that's all he's got.

Overpowered? Not at all, IME.

-O

 

[chaotix42]

There is a crazy paragon feat in AP that makes your Aegis of Shielding reduce damage by an additional 5 points.

 

[Obryn]

There is a crazy paragon feat in AP that makes your Aegis of Shielding reduce damage by an additional 5 points.

Honestly, this one doesn't bother me much.

Aegis of Shielding is already such a whammy that a foe more or less has to attack the Swordmage - even without the feat.

-O

 

[cdrcjsn]

I'd love to see a write-up of this.

A Fighter/Strength Cleric combo would be better. Healing is better than a warlord. Divine Power is amazing at high heroic/paragon. Str/Wis is better than Str/Cha for a fighter. Warpriest is a solid paragon path (bonus AC, nice powers). If you mark using the warpriest ability and a foe tries to shift away, you get two attacks, once as an immediate action thanks to fighter, and a second time as an OA thanks to the warpriest ability.

I'm currently playing a warforged Fighter/Cleric via the RPGA and several times now I've run with tables without any leaders and have done fine with regards to healing.

 

[cdrcjsn]

If you'd like to discuss more details of Arcane Power and how it brings balance to the weapon/implement dichotomy, don't be fearful that the OP (me) will consider it a threadjack!

Heh.

But there really isn't much to discuss. There are just more ways for weapon power users to spend feats to increase their damage right now. As more books come out, we'll see some of that imbalance go away. For instance, Arcane Power has a feat that allows implement users to wield a second implement and add the enhancement bonus of that implement to their damage rolls.

However, weapon powers that have multiple attacks that allow the user to attack the same target multiple times to magnify the effects of static bonuses (blade cascade, rain of blows) is harder to balance, other than introducing more implement powers that do the same.