D&D 5E so... any word on PDFs yet?

[gweinel]

Maybe they wait to publish the errata and probably minor modifications to the game and then sell the pdfs...

 

[Reynard]

Nah. Part of management a bunch of years ago may have been back when they first pulled the PDFs, but nobody these days. They've been selling and distributing stuff electronically for years now - DDI with 4E and the online magazines, the whole of dndclassics.com with hundreds of PDFs, the free basic rules.

WotC isn't afraid of piracy. It's very, very comfortable with and competent at large scale digital content in PDF format, has had great success with it, and has been for a long time now.

The only aberration in this otherwise consistent pattern for the last half decade is 5E.

And that's about a belief that such things would undercut current physical sales. I believe they're wrong about that, but that's the reason; piracy doesn't come into it. Pressure from retailers and distributors is likely a much larger factor, neither of whom have traditionally embraced the idea of non brick & mortar sales. Hell, they're not keen when you simply sell your physical wares online, let alone digital versions of it!

That's also why DungeonScape was pulled, according to Trapdoor staff who posted as such here before editing out the post!

Does anyone have Lisa Stevens' phone number? Could you pass it on to the WotC folks so they can give her a call and she can disabuse them of the notion that open rules and easily available PDFs hurt sales. Thanks.

 

[delericho]

Does anyone have Lisa Stevens' phone number? Could you pass it on to the WotC folks so they can give her a call and she can disabuse them of the notion that open rules and easily available PDFs hurt sales. Thanks.

WotC isn't Paizo, and D&D isn't Pathfinder.

In particular, WotC could very well be viewing the whole of D&D as a loss-leader to drive Magic sales - get people into game stores to buy the D&D core rulebooks, or even just to play Adventurer League, and while they're there maybe they'll pick up a few packs of Magic cards.

I should note: I don't think the example above is what's actually happening; I'm just using it as an example. But the simple truth is that the business realities that Paizo operate under are very different from those for the D&D team at WotC, so simply copying the same strategy isn't necessarily a good idea.

 

[Reynard]

WotC isn't Paizo, and D&D isn't Pathfinder.

In particular, WotC could very well be viewing the whole of D&D as a loss-leader to drive Magic sales - get people into game stores to buy the D&D core rulebooks, or even just to play Adventurer League, and while they're there maybe they'll pick up a few packs of Magic cards.

The reality is probably quite the opposite. Magic drives many, many more people into the stores. The Adventurers League and other Organized Play stuff is intended, I think, to make those Magic buyers aware of D&D and pique their curiosity, possibly drawing some into the player/customer base.

But the simple truth is that the business realities that Paizo operate under are very different from those for the D&D team at WotC, so simply copying the same strategy isn't necessarily a good idea.

It is not about copying the strategy, it is about having a real world example that WotC is simply wrong in its belief that an open rules set and accessible PDFs are damaging to an RPG's sales. Whether it is WotC or Hasbro, there is a cultural problem in the company regarding electronic access to the game. Maybe they feel burned by Paizo. Maybe they are convinced DDI is still viable. Maybe they want to monetize the brand in such a way as to sell off licenses rather than give things away. In any case, they are not serving their customers by holding back on both an OGL and PDFs and some people will throw up their hands and walk away because of it, and others will feel justified to pirate books because of it. Even if those people represent a tiny minority, it is still a loss because *not* having an OGL or PDFs isn't going to draw any new customers who would not otherwise have appeared.

 

[delericho]

Whether it is WotC or Hasbro, there is a cultural problem in the company regarding electronic access to the game.

Or they have a very small team and consider providing PDFs to be a lower priority than other things. And we know the first half of that to be true.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It is not about copying the strategy, it is about having a real world example that WotC is simply wrong in its belief that an open rules set and accessible PDFs are damaging to an RPG's sales.

An RPG? Perhaps not. But D&D is not "an RPG."

WotC has a pretty close relationship with a lot of its stores. The Adventurer's League is what we see of that in D&D, but M:tG is a bigger deal there. WotC is likely not in the business of irking its storefronts, where the kids gather after school and play game tournaments and bring in quite a bit of money.

I can see the logic in not putting out pdfs if it somehow helps the store owners feel better about themselves in the morning, and preserves that relationship. FLGSs are something WotC wants to support!

I'd argue that they could sell a PDF product that didn't compete with the store's product (for instance, sell an art-lite "print friendly" version of the book), and that the stores are likely being paranoid (if all you have to get people to patronize your establishment is exclusivity, you don't have a sustainable business model, you just have corporate nepotism), but I'm just some jerk on the internet.

 

[Jester David]

Nah. Part of management a bunch of years ago may have been back when they first pulled the PDFs, but nobody these days. They've been selling and distributing stuff electronically for years now - DDI with 4E and the online magazines, the whole of dndclassics.com with hundreds of PDFs, the free basic rules.

IIRC the CEO is the same, and he was pretty anti-piracy when he pulled PDFs. Releasing PDFs now would be tantamount to admitting he made a mistake 5 years ago and cost the company money.

WotC isn't afraid of piracy. It's very, very comfortable with and competent at large scale digital content in PDF format, has had great success with it, and has been for a long time now.

I'd like to hope DnDClassics.com has been a succeess. But it also doesn't sell core rulebook. Excluding stuff for Basic.

And that's about a belief that such things would undercut current physical sales. I believe they're wrong about that, but that's the reason; piracy doesn't come into it. Pressure from retailers and distributors is likely a much larger factor, neither of whom have traditionally embraced the idea of non brick & mortar sales. Hell, they're not keen when you simply sell your physical wares online, let alone digital versions of it!

I don't see sales entering into it as much for WotC. If they sell a PDF for $15 and have a 75% cut, then they've made as much as a book sale. (And they'd likely sell a PDF of a new rulebook at more than $15.)
Pressure from distributors might have some impact, but retailers have much more to fear from Amazon. And if they release the PDF a few weeks after the street date, that'd still encourage people who want a look to buy in stores. After years of the dominant game being PDF friendly, I'd hope more retailers would be aware that e-books are less of a competition.

 

[Reynard]

FLGSs are something WotC wants to support!

But so does Paizo. They don't have the card game business to bolster but they still need FLGS to keep the game alive and draw new players from walk ins. I started a Pathfinder game at my FLGS a couple years ago and it is still going on, with consistent new player involvement -- and it isn't even an Organized Play, just a table game. I am sure the majority of their AP sales are subscription based, but core books and incidentals, as well as new players, come out of the FLGS. It's not a compelling argument against PDFs.

 

[Jester David]

WotC has a pretty close relationship with a lot of its stores. The Adventurer's League is what we see of that in D&D, but M:tG is a bigger deal there. WotC is likely not in the business of irking its storefronts, where the kids gather after school and play game tournaments and bring in quite a bit of money.

I can see the logic in not putting out pdfs if it somehow helps the store owners feel better about themselves in the morning, and preserves that relationship. FLGSs are something WotC wants to support!

I'd argue that they could sell a PDF product that didn't compete with the store's product (for instance, sell an art-lite "print friendly" version of the book), and that the stores are likely being paranoid (if all you have to get people to patronize your establishment is exclusivity, you don't have a sustainable business model, you just have corporate nepotism), but I'm just some jerk on the internet.

I'd hope after 4 years of the #1 game being very PDF-friendly that game stores would be more aware that sales of PDFs do not always translate into lost physical sales. (Buying directly from Paizo or Amazon would be the bigger threat.)
And if the PDFs came out weeks after the book launched in premier stores (after regular retailers get it) that'd also help.

But this assumes WotC is willing to budge from their stance of "no PDFs" and even consider other options.

 

[delericho]

IIRC the CEO is the same, and he was pretty anti-piracy when he pulled PDFs. Releasing PDFs now would be tantamount to admitting he made a mistake 5 years ago and cost the company money.

They've been selling PDFs for some time, so that policy does indeed seem to have been reversed.

(And, incidentally, among the PDFs they do sell is that same "Players Handbook 2" that was the cause of the PDFs being pulled in the first place.)

I'd like to hope DnDClassics.com has been a succeess. But it also doesn't sell core rulebook. Excluding stuff for Basic.

Actually, the split looks more like "stuff available in stores" vs "stuff not available in stores", rather than "core rulebooks" vs "non-core rulebooks". As you note, the B/X and Rules Cyclopedia versions are available on that site, while the new A- and S- series adventures are not.

Pressure from distributors might have some impact, but retailers have much more to fear from Amazon.

Of course, it could be pressure from Amazon that's the blame...