So... Do Summoned Creatures Suck?

[DracoSuave]

Don't have time to use a more official source, but from the Heroes of Shadow promotional material:

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Necromancy & Nethermancy)

This would not be the first time that promotional material talking about the game would be incorrect regarding how the game feature works.

If that's how it is intended (which you're right, it probably is), that is not how it is written, and that is not how it works as written. This is one of those cases where the power could easily have been written to reflect that intent.

There's no excuse not to.

It's not a sustainable spell, which implicitly last for an encounter, no more. It has no duration listed other than the 0 hit point one. If you want to convince him, you should provide the rule that says otherwise.

Ie, summoned creatures general rule: "Duration: The summoned creature lasts until the summoner takes a minor action to dismiss it or until the end of the encounter." Except, this one implicitly has another duration, which is more specific.

Much like it deals your surge value instead of half your bloodied value, if you have no surges and it dies, unlike normal summoned creatures.

Again, adding additional conditions for a power to end does not erase previous conditions unless those conditions are impossible to meet otherwise.

Nothing in the power says that it can last beyond the end of the encounter, so the keyword's rule does, in fact, apply, same as any other rule in the game that does not have a specific exception.

Draco's Corrolary: "When an exception to a general rule does not actually exist, you apply the general rule. That's why they exist."

 

[Kinneus]

It's pretty clear that's the intent of the power, though. It says "The creature lasts until it drops to 0 hit points... Otherwise, it lasts until you use a minor action to dismiss it or until you use this power again."

It gives three specific examples of how this power can end. This is a case of specific trumping general. If condition A (0 hit points) is not met, then it sticks around until condition B happens (minor action to dismiss) or condition C happens (using the power again).

It specifically says it lasts until 0 hit points, or until Condition B or Condition C happens. Specific trumps general. The rules for the Summon keyword do not apply.

 

[DracoSuave]

It's pretty clear that's the intent of the power, though. It says "The creature lasts until it drops to 0 hit points... Otherwise, it lasts until you use a minor action to dismiss it or until you use this power again."

It gives three specific examples of how this power can end. This is a case of specific trumping general. If condition A (0 hit points) is not met, then it sticks around until condition B happens (minor action to dismiss) or condition C happens (using the power again).

It specifically says it lasts until 0 hit points, or until Condition B or Condition C happens. Specific trumps general. The rules for the Summon keyword do not apply.

Except neither Condition A, B, nor C actually state Condition D does not apply.

In order for an exception to occur, the rule being excepted must actually be excepted.

The summon keyword itself says that a summon lasts until the end of the encounter.

That's Condition A.

The power's text states that it ends when it reaches zero hit points, Condition B. Condition B does not preclude Condition A.
It says it ends with a minor action. Condition C does not preclude Condition A.
It says it ends when you use the power again. Condition D does not preclude Condition A.

Where is the exception, the phrase that either says that the power ignores Condition A's existance ("This power does not end at the end of the encounter") or has a different frame of time than Condition A ("This power lasts until the next extended rest")?

 

[Kinneus]

The exception is the word "otherwise." Otherwise, used as a conjunction, means "if not." If it is reduced to 0 HP, it goes away. If not, it lasts until you dismiss it or you use the power again. These are the specific rules contained within the power. It specifically says "if not" destroyed, then it lasts until dismissed or until Summon Shadow Servant is used again.

Specific trumps general.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Except neither Condition A, B, nor C actually state Condition D does not apply.

In order for an exception to occur, the rule being excepted must actually be excepted.

The summon keyword itself says that a summon lasts until the end of the encounter.

That's Condition A.

The power's text states that it ends when it reaches zero hit points, Condition B. Condition B does not preclude Condition A.
It says it ends with a minor action. Condition C does not preclude Condition A.
It says it ends when you use the power again. Condition D does not preclude Condition A.

Where is the exception, the phrase that either says that the power ignores Condition A's existance ("This power does not end at the end of the encounter") or has a different frame of time than Condition A ("This power lasts until the next extended rest")?

Well, this power DOES have its own 'duration' statement. I'd argue that replaces the default duration. Thus there's no explicit need to override clauses of the default duration for a daily (end of encounter) because any such rules are no longer in effect once you specify your own duration.

I am not stating I've researched this and it may not be consistent with some other powers, but it makes sense to me.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, this power DOES have its own 'duration' statement. I'd argue that replaces the default duration. Thus there's no explicit need to override clauses of the default duration for a daily (end of encounter) because any such rules are no longer in effect once you specify your own duration.

I am not stating I've researched this and it may not be consistent with some other powers, but it makes sense to me.

The problem with that logic is that powers do exist with their own durations that do NOT trump the keyword rules for the durations of those powers.

Lots of conjurations, for example, have alternative conditions for how they end. For example, Spirit Conjurations have a set duration where the power ends if an attack deals more than a certain threshold of damage. This, however, does not remove the condition that the power ends if the conjuration moves out of range of the user of the power.

Just because a power has an alternate ending condition, does not erase existing ending conditions on that power set by its keyword. Durations are based on conditions, not specific lengths of time. All the power does is add more conditions, it does not actually negate existing conditions. In order to do that, it must directly state so.

 

[jbear]

I think Kinneus has the right of it. There is a specific duration stated, trumping the general summons rule. Whether the promotional material is dubious or not, it's there in the power.

As for summons sucking:

What you need is a succubus. Get yourself a succubus!!!

 

[bganon]

Actually, I think the real confusion arises because the new style of writing summoning powers seems to be to spell out all the details in the creature entry as if no general summoning rules existed. If you read things that way then everything seems to work as intended.

But from an absolute rules lawyer perspective, I agree with DracoSuave. The general summoning rules state that summons end at the end of the encounter unless the power specifies otherwise, and the power doesn't explicitly say otherwise. That this isn't what WotC intended is unfortunate, but dem's da rules.

 

[kerbarian]

As for summons sucking:

What you need is a succubus. Get yourself a succubus!!!

The summons with Intrinsic Nature are definitely the strong ones, since they effectively give you extra standard actions (for those few with party-friendly intrinsic natures).

Summon Succubus is powerful, but she leaves you dazed. Summon Magma Beast occasionally requires a command to keep it from attacking your friends, but usually it works out fine if you summon it behind the bad guys, and it has very little downside (you're slowed but can shift 2 as a move action).

Of course, no summon is going to be good if it gets instantly splattered as collateral damage by bursts and blasts, but even in that case the Intrinsic Nature summons will at least get off one attack while only costing you a minor action.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The problem with that logic is that powers do exist with their own durations that do NOT trump the keyword rules for the durations of those powers.

Lots of conjurations, for example, have alternative conditions for how they end. For example, Spirit Conjurations have a set duration where the power ends if an attack deals more than a certain threshold of damage. This, however, does not remove the condition that the power ends if the conjuration moves out of range of the user of the power.

That isn't the same thing. Overriding the duration clause doesn't override the rules for the conjuration keyword, which specify the 'out of range' ending condition. I'm not saying you're wrong. I am suggesting that this is not necessarily an area where the rules are entirely consistent, and I am not popping up an example off the top of my head where this is specifically an issue. It is pretty clear what the intent of the power in question was, so given that I see it to be perfectly plausible that it was written with my suggested interpretation in mind. I think you can easily find many other powers where similar situations got hit with clarifying errata later on.

Just because a power has an alternate ending condition, does not erase existing ending conditions on that power set by its keyword. Durations are based on conditions, not specific lengths of time. All the power does is add more conditions, it does not actually negate existing conditions. In order to do that, it must directly state so.

Except that every power has an implicit 'duration' and then perhaps an explicit 'duration', and then there may be other parts of the rules, like the conjuration keyword or the summoning keyword that specify variations on duration that are applicable to them. It also gets a bit messier than that because even the 'standard durations' are attached to a variety of things, like a daily will last to the end of the encounter by default, but an at-will or encounter power won't. Is that part of something that duration overrides or is it really part of it being a daily and it has to be specifically overridden? I say duration is an actual element of the power that just references other properties, so if it gets replaced it gets replaced. This is the normal case with other types of elements where if they are only amended the text is clearly stating that too.