So... Do Summoned Creatures Suck?

[DracoSuave]

Well, except it was a burst attack that dropped it, in this case.

You still saved two healing surges.

Scarier is the fact that in multiple combats they've been exposed to close attacks that would bloody his character.

Yep, so each summon is two extra healing surges not spent.

 

[keterys]

It was a burst attack. That means the summons at worst cost him a surge, by being an extra "free" target, but they very much did not save him any, at all.

 

[Kinneus]

Wow, it went down in a single hit!?!

Okay, let's look at what effect that has.

You're fighting something that can, in a single hit, bring you below bloodied. That will cost you three healing surges to get up to full. By the enemy attacking and defeating your summons, you've saved two healing surges, plus whatever effects that attack would have had upon you.

One daily to get two free healing surges? That's a -deal-.

While I get what you're saying, that simply wasn't the case in either combat. My character is a Mage; in both instances, he was safely in the back row while the frontline defenders locked down the enemy.

In both instances, I was trying to move my summon into position to 1) provide flanking to the party Fighter and 2) set it up so I could use its attacks next turn (having previously used a bigger, better attack on my first turn).

In the first fight, my Mage was on the roof of a nearby building, well out of reach. In the second fight, the enemy was immobilized by the Fighter while my Mage stood more than 5 squares away.

In both instances, my PC was in virtually no danger of being attacked. So sending my summon in didn't 'save' me two surges; in fact, it cost me a surge I would've kept, because when the summon blew up, I lost a surge.

I guess the lesson is not to bring out my summon until I'm ready to actually use it attacks. This would at least let me get off one attack before my minion goes boom.

But the main selling point of Summon Shadow Servant is that it lasts all day, instead of a single Encounter. That's not much of a selling point, though, when it's consistently dying the round immediately after it was summoned.

So while the idea of "saving surges" with summons is good in theory, it's pretty cold comfort in these particular anecdotes, and doesn't really apply in the case of bursts and blasts.

 

[DracoSuave]

I get that.

But if you're fighting creatures that put out a megaton of damage really quickly... doesn't it make sense to wait until those creatures blow their load before summoning the things that those creatures' load can negate?

Tactics man, tactics. Your summons (and any daily power designed to swing combat) is better used in the middle of the fight, not the first round.


As well, Summon Shadow Servant doesn't last beyond the encounter. For any power to do so, it must explicitly state that it can last that long. All powers have a duration of five minutes, or end of the encounter, no matter what other conditions they state, unless they have a clause stating they can last longer.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

While I get what you're saying, that simply wasn't the case in either combat. My character is a Mage; in both instances, he was safely in the back row while the frontline defenders locked down the enemy.

In both instances, I was trying to move my summon into position to 1) provide flanking to the party Fighter and 2) set it up so I could use its attacks next turn (having previously used a bigger, better attack on my first turn).

In the first fight, my Mage was on the roof of a nearby building, well out of reach. In the second fight, the enemy was immobilized by the Fighter while my Mage stood more than 5 squares away.

In both instances, my PC was in virtually no danger of being attacked. So sending my summon in didn't 'save' me two surges; in fact, it cost me a surge I would've kept, because when the summon blew up, I lost a surge.

I guess the lesson is not to bring out my summon until I'm ready to actually use it attacks. This would at least let me get off one attack before my minion goes boom.

But the main selling point of Summon Shadow Servant is that it lasts all day, instead of a single Encounter. That's not much of a selling point, though, when it's consistently dying the round immediately after it was summoned.

So while the idea of "saving surges" with summons is good in theory, it's pretty cold comfort in these particular anecdotes, and doesn't really apply in the case of bursts and blasts.

Well, the observation about the amount of damage that was dished out by a single burst is relevant as well. That's a pretty boffo attack. NORMALLY I would not expect them to just croak. Summons are not super durable, but they should survive a couple attacks.

 

[bganon]

Shadow skeleton doesn't look especially weak compared to other summons (actually the OA is pretty good), but I think part of the issue is that several of the buffs to improve summons are feats/features specific to the Tome of Binding Arcanist Wizard. It might be tricky to make a really great summoner Mage. Also, Necromancers don't use Con, which tends to be key for summoning (although it sounds like you might have that due to the Pyromancy).

Also, like many Wizard dailies, it really comes down to using it in the right situation. The shadow skeleton will be pretty nice against a swarm of similar-level skirmishers/artillery. Versus a single powerful monster with blasts/bursts, not so much.

 

[Kinneus]

I get that.
As well, Summon Shadow Servant doesn't last beyond the encounter. For any power to do so, it must explicitly state that it can last that long. All powers have a duration of five minutes, or end of the encounter, no matter what other conditions they state, unless they have a clause stating they can last longer.

Effect: You summon a creature associated with your necromancy or nethermancy Expert Mage benefit. The creature appears in an unoccupied space within range, and it is an ally to you and your allies.
The creature lacks actions of its own. Instead, you spend actions to command it mentally, choosing from the actions in the creature’s description. You must have line of effect to the creature to command it. When you command the creature, the two of you share knowledge but not senses.
When the creature makes an attack roll or a check, you make the roll using your game statistics, not including any temporary bonuses or penalties.
The creature lasts until it drops to 0 hit points, at which point you lose a healing surge (or hit points equal to your surge value if you have no surges left). Otherwise, it lasts until you use a minor action to dismiss it or until you use this power again.

With this in mind, could you perhaps see why it'd be beneficial to deploy Summon Shadow Servant as early as possible? To eek out all the benefit you can from a summon able to (theoretically) live through multiple Encounters?

The question is whether that benefit will ever come into play. Basically, whether or not it's reasonable to expect the Shadow Servant to survive even a single combat.

 

[DracoSuave]

With this in mind, could you perhaps see why it'd be beneficial to deploy Summon Shadow Servant as early as possible? To eek out all the benefit you can from a summon able to (theoretically) live through multiple Encounters?

The question is whether that benefit will ever come into play. Basically, whether or not it's reasonable to expect the Shadow Servant to survive even a single combat.

Bolding text that does not say the power can last longer than an encounter does not magically make it able to last longer than an encounter.

The 'until the power is used again' clause prevents using abilities to recharge the daily and then have two in play at once. It does not change the maximum duration of the power... for that you need something that says 'This power may last beyond the end of the encounter' or 'This power lasts until your next extended rest' or something similiar to that that makes the power impossible to function as written without extending beyond the encounter.

 

[keterys]

It's not a sustainable spell, which implicitly last for an encounter, no more. It has no duration listed other than the 0 hit point one. If you want to convince him, you should provide the rule that says otherwise.

Ie, summoned creatures general rule: "Duration: The summoned creature lasts until the summoner takes a minor action to dismiss it or until the end of the encounter." Except, this one implicitly has another duration, which is more specific.

Much like it deals your surge value instead of half your bloodied value, if you have no surges and it dies, unlike normal summoned creatures.

 

[Kinneus]

Don't have time to use a more official source, but from the Heroes of Shadow promotional material:

At 5th level, you can grab the summon shadow servant power. With it, you can summon a servant depending on your Expert Mage school, either a shadow skeleton or a shadow beast. The difference between these critters and other summoned monsters is that they persist beyond the combat encounter. Restricting created undead to an encounter just seemed weird. A necromancer who spends the time to summon an undead servant ought to be able to keep that servant around. So you can. You pop off this spell and you get a buddy to carry your luggage, menace the locals, and rip the orcs to pieces. And before I forget, you can also improve your shadow servant at 19th level and summon either a wraith or shadow brute in place of the lesser servants available at lower levels.

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Necromancy & Nethermancy)