D&D General So how about alignment, eh?

[Andvari]

Then she would be totally unreasonable for being upset by the change, right?

Reflecting on one's character's past actions isn't "being upset." In fact she used it as a dramatic tool, deciding her character would in fact feel quite bad over stealing a powerful magic item from an ally. Had Matt said nothing, she might not have taken the opportunity to consider that. She could have also decided her character was fine with it.

One thing's for sure. Matt wasn't telling her which choice was the only one allowed. I think Matt as an experienced DM knows how insidiously easy it can sometimes be for characters start doing suspect things here and there given their player knows all the characters in the fiction aren't real people with real feelings and real lives.

 

[Scribe]

Attached is the "alignment chart" from our "Blue Book," in case anyone's interested:

 

[Vaalingrade]

Who is right here? Answer: the DM.

Nope. That's not the DM's character. They can back right off.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I don’t really see how it’s all that complicated, stark while chaotic on the individual level recognised the need for greater law in the execution of good, it is comparable to a chaotic character aligning themselves with the side of cosmic law over the battle for cosmic good.

Movie Tony was acting on his PTSD and weird visons that are only explained in deleted scenes that are supposed to act like he has perfect foresight of Thanos coming -- only for that whole problem to be solved by the ex-con who opposed him.

Comics Tony was acting on bad writing that led to him murdering colleagues and enslaving legal minors.

I think the cap comes off as more lawful than he actually is because he’s so good, it is the good thing to do to obey the law and be a well behaved citizen but as I said earlier when push comes to shove cap prioritises being good over being lawful.

Right is not the same as Good or Lawful. Cap represents Right as it pertains to the professed American Ideal.

 

[ThorinTeague]

I mentioned here many times that I use Wrestling Alignment.

Faces, Heels, and Tweeners.

Just so long as you use a kayfabe stat.

 

[Andvari]

Nope. That's not the DM's character. They can back right off.

So the murdering of the innocent for the fun of it is good behavior in your estimation?

 

[Lanefan]

Really? What about all the complaints about the 15-minute (or is it 5?) workday? Sounds pretty slothful to me!

They cram more work - and risk - into those 15 minutes than most of us do into a week. Newver mind all the trudging they have to do to get there, or what's required to research spells etc. in town.

 

[Lanefan]

Nope. That's not the DM's character. They can back right off.

It's the DM's world, and the characters are inhabitants of said world, and thus are a part of it. If the world (i.e. the DM) sees a character as alignment XY then that's what it is for game purposes, regardless of what the character or its player might think or want.

Put another way, if you want to be perceived as being of a given alignment then bloody well play to it, even if only vaguely and only most of the time. And there's many ways to play to each alignment, and if what you end up with is near a border then it'll reflect that way e.g. for a character who shows as somewhere on the border between CG and CN (which is probably the long-term average among al characters) I'll quietly write either Cg or Cn as its alignment; if it's played closer to pure N then it might show as cg in small letters, or whatever.

Put yet another way, if the player's play of the character says one thing and the written alignment on the sheet says another, one of those things has to change or else we're immediately into bad-faith play territory. (if you disagree with this we've nothing further to discuss; I've no time for bad-faith play or defense of such)

A DM who says "You're playing it wrong" is taking the stance that the play of the character has to change to get these two things back in synch; a DM who (like me) says "What's written on the sheet has to change" is in fact saying the player's been playing it right but has simply written the wrong letters on the character sheet.

 

[AnotherGuy]

In reality, I expect if a player is playing against type, (and it doesn't have to be alignment) it could be some other detail or even something established in the fiction, they would be called on it by the DM, another player or the entire table. And if the general consensus was that the actions of the character do not match the details on the character sheet, then a change would be enforced.
No one character is above the entire game.

 

[Knorrrssk]

I prefer the classic 3. Law, Chaos and Neutrality. Trying to bring good and evil into the mix gets complicated when the nature of good and evil is not easy to define, and many of the actions taken by supposedly 'good' guys can be questionable.

Is a paladin really good, if their primary tool is supposedly righteous violence?

Of course, definition of good and evil can vary from setting to setting and culture to culture. That is where it gets complicated. I prefer not to have those moral debates at my table, after a couple of decades they get a bit tiresome.