So, How does the Complete Warrior Swashbuckler play out?

[Mercule]

Looking at the swashbuckler's abilities, I think my current swashbuckling-type character is better off as a ftr/rog. Better skills, better saves, better specials...improved evasion and sneak attack dice to go along with that Bluff score are just too nice to give up. If I were going to swap for anything, it'd be the Unfettered from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed.

Interesting. When we had a Ftr/Rog in our group, she was extremely lackluster. In fact, she was inferior, combat-wise, to the Rog/Acr I was playing. By the time she qualified for the Duelist PrC, she was almost irrelivant.

Since that time, I've always considered Ftr/Rog to be a sub-optimal build. Well, I suppose it would work if you had a high enough strength, but then that kind of defeats the point of playing a swashbuckler (who should be acceptable in combat with a 10-12 str).

Statistically, I can see where Evasion and Sneak Attack are nice in the general, but I fail to see how they have any relevance to a one-on-one melee character, barring Feint (which would rob you of multiple attacks).

I can't say I was a fan of Monte's Unfettered. In part, this is because of the inclusion of Sneak Attacks as a class feature.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Interesting. When we had a Ftr/Rog in our group, she was extremely lackluster. In fact, she was inferior, combat-wise, to the Rog/Acr I was playing. By the time she qualified for the Duelist PrC, she was almost irrelivant.

Since that time, I've always considered Ftr/Rog to be a sub-optimal build. Well, I suppose it would work if you had a high enough strength, but then that kind of defeats the point of playing a swashbuckler (who should be acceptable in combat with a 10-12 str).

Statistically, I can see where Evasion and Sneak Attack are nice in the general, but I fail to see how they have any relevance to a one-on-one melee character, barring Feint (which would rob you of multiple attacks).

I can't say I was a fan of Monte's Unfettered. In part, this is because of the inclusion of Sneak Attacks as a class feature.

Fighter/rogue builds are not going to be as good at the one on one fight as some other builds. But play one in a party with a line fighter and you've got a very nasty one-two punch. And with the skill set available, they should always be able to pull off the flank.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Rogues come with too much extra baggage......traps, hiding, and backstabbing are not the things of swashbucklers and dulists, they are the things of knaves and rapscallions.......a Ftr/Rog is little better than a Dirty Fighter!

But with a Swash/Duel, you've got someone whose combat power depends more on their knowledge than on their muscle....which is choice.

 

[VorpalBunny]

I'm about to play one. I'll let you know how it goes.

Ditto. Got one made up for a Forgotten Realms/Unearthed Arcana side game:

Malark Amurath: Male half-drow (Dalelands) Swashbuckler 1; Medium humanoid (elf); VD 1d10; VP/WP 12/14; Init +3; Spd 30 ft.; Defense 16, touch 16, flat-footed 13 (+3 Dex, +3 class); DR 2; Base Atk +1; Grp +3; Atk/Full Atk +4 melee (1d6+2/18-20, rapier), or +4 ranged; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., immune to sleep spells and similar effects, +2 save vs. enchantments; AL CG; SV Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +2; Str 15, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12; HT 6 ft.; WT 180 lbs.
Skills (Total/Rank): Balance +3/2, Climb +2/2, Intimidate +2/1, Jump +3/3, Listen +3/1, Perform (lute) +2/1, Sense Motive +4/2, Spot +3/1, Tumble +4/3
Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse
Languages Known: Chondathan, Common, Elven, Orc
Equipment: Chain shirt, traveler’s clothes, rapier, potion of cure moderate wounds, backpack, sack, 1 day trail rations, waterskin, bedroll, 21gp, 3 sp

Looking forward to taking him out for a spin.

 

[Darklone]

Fighter/rogue builds are not going to be as good at the one on one fight as some other builds. But play one in a party with a line fighter and you've got a very nasty one-two punch. And with the skill set available, they should always be able to pull off the flank.

Right. One on one they are a little weak (as long as tumble and a polearm or other reach weapon are not used), but in a team...

I had a group with one human bbn2/rog5, a human ftr4/rog3, a dwarven ftr4/rog3 and a halforc bbn3/rog4... among others.

The dwarf was a tank build (Con 20 in a low ability game) in heavy armour with doubleweapon and defensive fighting styles. The two humans both used tumble and spring attack with greatsword and spiked chain for devastating sneak attacks (flanking with the dwarf who enjoyed the full attacks with his TWF style) while the halforc... well. He usually delayed and charged at some prone opponent with full Power Attack. The human ftr/rog saw his char as a swashbuckler (and dropped the greatsword later for a rapier) but he would have never taken the CW class.

Every single one of them was not as strong as a singleclass build, but all of them together worked pretty nicely... Especially with the two fireball slingers from behind.

Ah well. Iron Will. Everyone planned to take it

 

[drnuncheon]

Since that time, I've always considered Ftr/Rog to be a sub-optimal build. Well, I suppose it would work if you had a high enough strength, but then that kind of defeats the point of playing a swashbuckler (who should be acceptable in combat with a 10-12 str).

What was the level ratio there? Mine is human Ftr4/Rog11/Duelist 2 (the last being recently added after the 3.5 changes to the class) and he hangs with the paladin in terms of general effectiveness - I think the spare human feat helped a lot. I took basically two trees: rapier-specific feats (WF, Focus, WS, Imp Crit) and the Whirlwind tree, and improved feint. Most of the damage comes from bonuses rather than the base die, plus criticals (12-20 crit range, as we voted to keep the 3.0 rules on those) and feint/sneak attack.

Losing full attacks isn't so bad if you're getting the sneak attack bonus damage (trade a second attack at -5 for the chance at +3d6 or more on the main attack? Sure! Sounds great to me!).

My wife's character in a different game is also a Ftr/Rog, also with improved critical and weapon specialization, and she does quite well. The other character there is also multiclassed, so that may not be as good evidence.

traps, hiding, and backstabbing are not the things of swashbucklers and dulists, they are the things of knaves and rapscallions

Clearly this so-called swashbuckler has never had to hide naked in an arras while the lady's husband stormed about the room in a fit of jealous rage. 'Backstabbing' is no longer part of D&D, and sneak attacks can be triggered by feints (which is the thing of swashbucklers and duelists). The beautiful thing about the rogue class is that its skill set is so broad, it doesn't have to include any of the 'classic thief' skills. Take Diplomacy, Bluff, Tumble, Jump, Climb, and Balance to start...Spot and Listen are always good, or suitably swashbuckly Professions like 'sailor', or even cross-class skills (you certainly have the points for them).

J

 

[Zoatebix]

Take Diplomacy, Bluff, Tumble, Jump, Climb, and Balance to start...Spot and Listen are always good, or suitably swashbuckly Professions like 'sailor', or even cross-class skills (you certainly have the points for them).

Hear hear! This argument goes for the Unfettered as well, to a lesser extent.
-z

PS - anyone notice that the 'grace' ability effectively gives the swashbuckler the same thing as a 'medium' saving throw progression between good and bad (+9 at 20th)? I guess the armor restriction on the ability gives it flavor...

 

[tetsujin28]

Dude, if you want swashbucklers, you need Swashbuckling Adventures. Chock full of something like 30 of them, if you include all the prestige classes.

 

[Lerris]

We have a swashbuckler in our group and so far it has worked out fine he's our noble of the group also which plays out fine together, suggest that you use an Elven Thinblade as your weapon of choice slightly more damage than a rapier.

 

[Mercule]

What was the level ratio there?

Ultimately, F4/R3/D1, IIRC. Oh, and an elf. Tried to minimize Rogue levels because the emphasis was on fighting. Weapon Specialization was considered critical because of her 10 strength.

Clearly this so-called swashbuckler has never had to hide naked in an arras while the lady's husband stormed about the room in a fit of jealous rage.

Since it was a female character/player, that would be a 'no'. In fairness, there were probably three major issues. 1) This was 3.0, no Improved Feint until late in the game. That means having to sacrifice all attacks one round to gain a sneak attack the next. 2) This was RtToEE. We knew we were bringing in characters that were better suited to a city adventure, but didn't expect her to be that underpowered. 3) The DM seriously nerfed sneak attack. Flanking didn't take effect until both combatants had had attacked the target and 'involuntary' movements (bull rush, odd grappling occurances, etc.) negated participation in flanking (yes, this resulted in some squares that literally could not be used to flank from).

Since I've still got some bad blood on #3 (I was the Rog/Acr), and part of my qualification for a swashbuckler/duelist is specifically to not need sneak attack, that really isn't relevant. A ftr/rog can be an effective build, I just don't consider it to fight as a swashbuckler.

Oh, here we go... I was the 2E Swashbuckler/Duelist (don't recall) kit for Fighter, not the one for Rogue. IMO, even that first +0 BAB from the Rogue invalidates the concept. The Swashbuckler BAB must, absolutely, be a full BAB. I want something that is on par in combat with the Paladin and Barbarian. Something that could replace a Fighter completely and solely, but does not require high strength or heavy armor.