So how's Kingmaker working out?

[noretoc]

I'll try to post as spoiler-free as possible.

I'm still mixed. As a player in KingMaker, I was definitely interesting in the opening activities, but as exploring each hex as dragged on, the encounters were a little mundane.

What I mean is, "you enter hex A, you fight mundane monster CR2; you enter hex B, roll Init you fight 5 mundane monsters CR1/2"

The beginning part was great with the outpost and what we did right after the outpost, but then we were wary to make a bee-line right to what felt like the major plot point next, so we started exploring. It feels a little CRPG/MMO like, just running to a square, killing a monster that has a "drop item" or what have you.

It's just funny that its lagging right where most of the APs suddenly "pick up the stream". Your mileage may vary.

This was my experience as a palyer. It may have been an inexperienced DM, but it turned into a MMORPG. The random monsters would pop out, attack, we would kill them, rinse repeat. It got worse when we got to the second module. The kingdom building felt like a game of Civilization so much that we were wondering how long before the acadamy discovered gunpowder. Then there were some quests, which again felt like MMORPG. (We kept looking for NPCs with glowing marks over thier heads ), and back to some more exploring, with bigger random monster. It was like we went from the newbie area to the novice area.

I think it could have been put together much better, module wise as well as a better job by the DM we had. We quit after the first part of the second module, as the jokes were becoming less and less funny, and more irritating.

 

[Votan]

Just like what the thread title says, how's it turning out? I'm interested primarily in hearing the experiences from those who are playing or running it.

I've heard it's pretty nonlinear unlike other adventure paths. Is that true?

I am reading it and not playing it but it has the feel of the old RPGs of the 1980's in terms of open ended quests, the need to explore and the idea of gathering land together as being an ultimate goal. I would like to try it out and may make a concerted effort to try and recruit a local group to do so at some point.

 

[BlackMoria]

Kingmaker is an campaign that will rise or fall in its expectations depending on the DM. Given the sandbox nature of the campaign, some work on the part of the DM is essential.

I found that the many of the 'quests' not related to the plotline were somewhat silly in relation to the quest rewards and as the AP progresses, the quests are somewhat trivial and inappropiate for the characters who are the fledging nation's movers and shakers.

Played as is, some players may find that somewhat unsatisfying. The more hands on the DM is in customizing the adventures, the better the experience, IMO.

The appeal of Kingmaker is its open nature sandbox approach and it is worth the time and effort for the DM to change it up and customize it. It might play out well 'as is' for some groups but this AP really requires some loving hands on by the DM to knock it out of the park.

 

[ruemere]

The slow down occurs mostly due to playing encounters in the old-fashioned way - i.e. meet a monster, vanquish a monster. If you spice the monster with some personality, or allow your characters to hire someone else to do exploration for you (i.e. act like a proper ruler of a growing kingdom), you can easily avoid repetitiveness.

Just watch the levels to make sure characters are not lagging behind the guidelines.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[IronWolf]

The slow down occurs mostly due to playing encounters in the old-fashioned way - i.e. meet a monster, vanquish a monster. If you spice the monster with some personality, or allow your characters to hire someone else to do exploration for you (i.e. act like a proper ruler of a growing kingdom), you can easily avoid repetitiveness.

The Paizo boards have some good ideas on how to add some depth to some of the quests and random encounters one might come across in Kingmaker. Several good ideas over there on tweaking some of the items just a bit more and turning them into more of an actual encounter instead of "explore, kill things, take their stuff."

 

[Caedwyr]

The important thing for sandbox games in my experience is for the Players to have personal and group goals they are working towards other than "get xp, gear, and level up". When the players are working towards their goals, a DM can weave the other situations presented in the sandbox campaign into the player's experience. If you just play a sandbox like a normal more directed, story-driven campaign then things can get a bit dull and repetitive. It's important to remember that, while a skilled DM can make things more interesting and run smoothly, a Sandbox campaign also requires more initiative and self-direction from the players to make the most of the campaign.

 

[neofax]

The important thing for sandbox games in my experience is for the Players to have personal and group goals they are working towards other than "get xp, gear, and level up". When the players are working towards their goals, a DM can weave the other situations presented in the sandbox campaign into the player's experience. If you just play a sandbox like a normal more directed, story-driven campaign then things can get a bit dull and repetitive. It's important to remember that, while a skilled DM can make things more interesting and run smoothly, a Sandbox campaign also requires more initiative and self-direction from the players to make the most of the campaign.

+1
Although, I do believe this is true for all games. A campaign is not just a DM's responsibility and he/she only has what the players provide them with. So, if you provide a lather, rinse repeat character, don't bitch if that is what you get.

With that said, I enjoy the game and think it is by far the best AP Paizo has done in it's APs. I DM the game for my kids and they enjoy playing both the exploration and encounter part, but also the kingdom making. My youngest has always wanted to be a princess, and this is her chance.

 

[wakedown]

Expanding on my earlier thoughts about Kingmaker and the mundane hex exploration that our group seems to be entrenched in, at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a solid adventure (I'm speaking to the first installment only), were I to judge it against some of the other classic sandbox adventures (Keep on the Borderlands comes to mind). I remember having a blast in KotB but that was because the players were doing crazy stuff in the "old days", trying to rob the bank or woo an NPC, and with so little printed, the DM went creatively nuts letting the players also go creatively nuts.

Kingmaker has this. You'll want players hyper-engaged to do outlandish stuff. It's very free-form.

That is in stark contrast to other Pathfinder APs to-date. All of my groups were hooked hardcore by Crimson Throne or Council of Thieves, Second Darkness or even Rise of the Runelords. All the prior APs, the players were teased with awesome Golarion flavor - ranging from ancient Thasilonian cults to Korvosa to Westcrown - that kept their drive going, and those APs were well planned to feed interesting plot points to the characters every couple of encounters.

Kingmaker teases players with the player's guide about the Swordlords and House Rogarvia, but then puts us so far away, you feel a little disconnected from the player's guide flavor text.

Whereas, take Second Darkness for a moment. A player who gets excited about the gambling halls, or the cyphermages or the gas forges of Riddleport, has those as "toys" in their sandbox" right away.

For a RP-enthusastic group, Kingmaker has relied on more PC-to-PC RP, whereas the other APs have a lot of interesting, deep NPCs so there's more PC-to-NPC RP. And the NPCs feel like major players in the city/country/etc -- giving a grander sense of adventure earlier in the player's careers.

 

[Set]

Do you find this good or bad to have what seems like an overwhelming number of quests to choose from? It is always hard to tell tone from posts, but it almost sounds like you see several cons to the Kingmaker game you are playing in.

Like pretty much anything, it can be a benefit or a hindrance, depending on the players or the medium. Players accustomed to something more linear might be lost in a sea of options, waiting for the plot-hook to jump out and drag them to the next scheduled event.

I suspect that the format works *better* for PBP than it would at the table, just because of the nature of 'travel a little while, encounter something, travel a little while, encounter something.'

 

[IronWolf]

I suspect that the format works *better* for PBP than it would at the table, just because of the nature of 'travel a little while, encounter something, travel a little while, encounter something.'

This might work well then for the mixed medium format I am thinking about. This will be an online game with Maptool and Ventrilo. But between those sessions I was planning on making heavy use of forums for some of the kingdom management, building, etc.

That way we can handle kingdom building details and background stuff on the forums and then during actual sessions we can still handle kingdom building, but it will be more of the role-playing portion of kingdom growth than going over the administrative portion which would have been handled on forums.

I think this AP will work well in that format. The Maptool and Ventrilo bit helping move the campaign along at a speed akin to a normal face-to-face game as opposed to the snail's pace of a Play-by-Post. We'll see how it works out, still in the formative stages of how to run it at this point.