So, if a dragon swallows someone carrying a lot of potions....

[Bauglir]

But when the character is dead and being swallowed... are the potions still attended? And still...no matter how attended the potions are, they still end up in the dragons belly in the end!

And about those cans of worms... Well, I can't really disagree. You have some good points there! But I still think that even "attended" potions should bestow their effect upon the dragon if swallowed. I can't really think of an explanation why they shouldn't!

Yep they still are attended. To use the fireball thing again, if a party member falls in a fight, and a fireball goes off, are all of his items incinerated? Generally speaking no they aren't. (YMMV)

Why aren't they? The long and short of it is because that's just mean (after all the character may end up resurrected). Generally speaking the rules will fit the reality, but in some cases they're just there to keep balance and fun, and are somewhat inconsistent with how one might percieve the situation.

For example - why can't I get AoOs on helpless foes that I threaten? After all they're not defending themselves any more than that wizard that just tried to cast a spell. Because that would lead to the "down an opponent, then finish them with an AoO" scenario, making the game FAR more lethal (and less fun), particularly at low levels.

Now the 2 rules in question here are:

a) Attended objects are not subject to external environmental influences (with the exception of a 1 roll on a saving throw)

b) Drinking a potion is a standard action that provokes an AoO; You cannot drink multiple potions at once.

My take on this scenario is that you MUST go by the rules, or you'll be creating an inconsistency that opens up the whole can of worms I mentioned above.

 

[Arthur Tealeaf]

Yep they still are attended. To use the fireball thing again, if a party member falls in a fight, and a fireball goes off, are all of his items incinerated? Generally speaking no they aren't. (YMMV)

Why aren't they? The long and short of it is because that's just mean (after all the character may end up resurrected). Generally speaking the rules will fit the reality, but in some cases they're just there to keep balance and fun, and are somewhat inconsistent with how one might percieve the situation.

For example - why can't I get AoOs on helpless foes that I threaten? After all they're not defending themselves any more than that wizard that just tried to cast a spell. Because that would lead to the "down an opponent, then finish them with an AoO" scenario, making the game FAR more lethal (and less fun), particularly at low levels.

Now the 2 rules in question here are:

a) Attended objects are not subject to external environmental influences (with the exception of a 1 roll on a saving throw)

b) Drinking a potion is a standard action that provokes an AoO; You cannot drink multiple potions at once.

My take on this scenario is that you MUST go by the rules, or you'll be creating an inconsistency that opens up the whole can of worms I mentioned above.

But how would you rule then? Would the potions come out the other end? Wouldn't they be digested? I don't understand how you can get around the fact that the potions in fact have been swallowed by a creature that can digest solid rock!

And to comment on b), the dragon doesn't have to use an SA to drink the potions, because it swallows them along with the character anyway! The standard action represents the unstoppering and quaffing of the potion, something the dragon does not have to do!

 

[Bauglir]

My personal feeling would be that the objects are unaffected in the short term - if the party wins the battle with the dragon they could cut it open and retrieve the lost party member complete with equipment.

Should the party be forced to retreat however (or worse) the dragon would start to digest its meal - smaller, perishable items would go first, to be eventually followed by bigger items such as weapons & armour. As for how long that would take I have no idea. I'd say at least several days - dragons are generally long lived and ponderous; their metabolism would most likely reflect this.

Mechanically speaking, if it were important I would give each item a saving throw vs acid over a fixed period (1/minute, 1/hour, 1/day - you decide) or otherwise I would just rule that everything was digested if the party took too long about retrieving items.

As for the method a dragon uses to take a potion, this is just some nice flavour - Taking a potion is always a standard action - it's an important balance point, and nowhere is it stated that dragons have a special ability that allows them to bypass it.

 

[Arthur Tealeaf]

My personal feeling would be that the objects are unaffected in the short term - if the party wins the battle with the dragon they could cut it open and retrieve the lost party member complete with equipment.

Should the party be forced to retreat however (or worse) the dragon would start to digest its meal - smaller, perishable items would go first, to be eventually followed by bigger items such as weapons & armour. As for how long that would take I have no idea. I'd say at least several days - dragons are generally long lived and ponderous; their metabolism would most likely reflect this.

Mechanically speaking, if it were important I would give each item a saving throw vs acid over a fixed period (1/minute, 1/hour, 1/day - you decide) or otherwise I would just rule that everything was digested if the party took too long about retrieving items.

As for the method a dragon uses to take a potion, this is just some nice flavour - Taking a potion is always a standard action - it's an important balance point, and nowhere is it stated that dragons have a special ability that allows them to bypass it.

I like your idea! Imagine the players, having just defeated a dragon, cutting it's belly open, the treasure pouring out! Great!

But about the standard action, I don't like using it as a requirement! As long as the potion is quaffed, I don't think it would matter! If a player of mine created a contraption which puts the potion to his mouth and pours when he makes a certain movement of his head, I would certainly have allowed it as less the an SA! I don't like restricting my players because of "balance" because it rarely matters that much. There are so many factors involved, so I usually just rely on plain and simple logic! It's so much more fun, and feels more rewarding! But that's just my own opinion of course!

And as you are saying, it isn't stated anywhere that dragons can bypass the standard action, but if the liquid actually ends up in the dragons belly, if only by accident, the potion vial getting crushed as the dragon swallows some poor soul, how can you argue that the potion wouldn't work normally?

edit: sigaway!

 

[Bauglir]

Only from a balance point of view really. For me, to retain balance and fairness is important to enjoyment of the game. I won't enjoy an encounter if I feel that either side was given an unfair advantage. It can make the outcome feel somehow.. arbitrary. (OK so I'm a bit of a control freak ) YMMV of course; everyone gets something different from the game.

Judgement calls on many situations are based heavily on perception of the scene, and sometimes, based on a description a player can see a very different scene to that which the gm has in mind. The reverse can also be true when a player describes his actions to the gm, and they are misinterpreted (often leading to unpleasant "well you've done it now, it's too late to change it" situations).

This is why I always try to use a rules-based framework where possible to make decisions. Rules are immutable and objective (whether they be core or house rules) and they will provide a necessary balance that would be impossible to achieve through a subjective measure.

The upshot of all this is; if you think that the dragon should benefit from the potions then go for it, but be prepared to explain to your players why they've always been limited to 1 at a time, and depending on the sort of players you have, you might also expect some of them to come up with crazy schemes (think beer hat) to allow them to take multiple potions at once, as a free action, or other silliness.

Again this is just my take on the whole thing. If you and your players are happier just making it up as you go along then go for it, and have fun.

 

[Arthur Tealeaf]

Only from a balance point of view really. For me, to retain balance and fairness is important to enjoyment of the game. I won't enjoy an encounter if I feel that either side was given an unfair advantage. It can make the outcome feel somehow.. arbitrary. (OK so I'm a bit of a control freak ) YMMV of course; everyone gets something different from the game.

Judgement calls on many situations are based heavily on perception of the scene, and sometimes, based on a description a player can see a very different scene to that which the gm has in mind. The reverse can also be true when a player describes his actions to the gm, and they are misinterpreted (often leading to unpleasant "well you've done it now, it's too late to change it" situations).

This is why I always try to use a rules-based framework where possible to make decisions. Rules are immutable and objective (whether they be core or house rules) and they will provide a necessary balance that would be impossible to achieve through a subjective measure.

The upshot of all this is; if you think that the dragon should benefit from the potions then go for it, but be prepared to explain to your players why they've always been limited to 1 at a time, and depending on the sort of players you have, you might also expect some of them to come up with crazy schemes (think beer hat) to allow them to take multiple potions at once, as a free action, or other silliness.

Again this is just my take on the whole thing. If you and your players are happier just making it up as you go along then go for it, and have fun.

The beer hat idea is actually reasonable! And, I have a great explanation for them: It takes time to drink more than one potion!

And yes thank you! We do have fun!