So Int does NOT add to skills

[Ahglock]

To me, that's not a good dump-stat system. To me, that's a system where you shouldn't have stats to begin with.

Think about it. If an ability score is only going to have applicability to specific classes, then just take the benefits of having the stat and transfer it over to the class. Kill the middle-man. Otherwise, you just needlessly putting a class feature on another page.

If you're going to have a system with ability scores, the entire point of them should be to provide benefits of a general nature.

Maybe I was unclear, I think the stats should provide a benefit, but my point is choosing to take a bad stat should be a viable option. Improving stats overall should be a viable option, focusing on a single stat should be a viable option. Yes, a good stat should help you, but if you decide to play grog the mighty but dumb warrior you should not be heavily penalized, you should lose out on some opportunities a high stat would provide and be penalized in some regards but your character should work out.

I'd prefer if every stat had meaning, but I accept that working every stat into having special meaning into every class can be a pain. Every stat should have some general meaning though. But its not that weird of a concept to say my character isn't good at X, and the concept of making a character not good at everything should be a playable and fine character to make.

Edit to add. I guess my point is a good dump stat system is where dump stats are viable, a bad dunp stat system is where dump stats are mechanically encouraged.

Edit two. Basically allowing as many character concepts as possible is what makes a good dump or non-dump system. 4e may be doing that it may not, allowing people not to have to put points into int is good, making it so only the wizard and warlord should is bad.

 

[Atreides]

I am very much hoping that we will later learn that INT provides something for the non wizard/sage type character.

I also am somewhat troubled by the idea that the 'standard array' is going to become 16,16,12,10,8,8 since it becomes less 'useful' to have decent non primary stats. We will see later I suppose - but this is certainly a major disappointment to me so far.

 

[Burr]

If you're going to have a system with ability scores, the entire point of them should be to provide benefits of a general nature.

Your point is not mutually exclusive with the statement you quoted. For example, Int and Dex both provide general benefits to Reflex on a system level, but any character can still freely ignore one of them without losing those general benefits. This is good of the 4e stat system.

On the other hand, suppose Int provides no general benefit that would make it a reasonable choice over Dex. No matter how many specific options there are for Int, not providing a unique general benefit would be bad of the 4e system.

I think the Aghlock summed up the situation perfectly.

 

[Ahglock]

Your point is not mutually exclusive with the statement you quoted. For example, Int and Dex both provide general benefits to Reflex on a system level, but any character can still freely ignore one of them without losing those general benefits. This is good of the 4e stat system.

On the other hand, suppose Int provides no general benefit that would make it a reasonable choice over Dex. No matter how many specific options there are for Int, not providing a unique general benefit would be bad of the 4e system.

I think the Aghlock summed up the situation perfectly.

Well at least someone seemed to understand what I meant, after both Hong and Felon I figured i had to clear things up, though I think I probably made things less clear.

 

[Celebrim]

Your point is not mutually exclusive with the statement you quoted. For example, Int and Dex both provide general benefits to Reflex on a system level, but any character can still freely ignore one of them without losing those general benefits. This is good of the 4e stat system.

On the other hand, suppose Int provides no general benefit that would make it a reasonable choice over Dex. No matter how many specific options there are for Int, not providing a unique general benefit would be bad of the 4e system.

That is it precisely.

In 1E, one of my problems with the system is that - as I began to lean towards point buy as the superior chargen method - I found that it didn't really support point buy because for most characters they recieved no clear and strong benefit from mental attributes like Wis, Int, and Chr. You couldn't treat all attributes as having approximately the same value. You pretty much had to use some method of randomization to enforce some level of variaty and avoid most players treating Int and Chr as dump stats and relying on thier personal Int and Chr when in game.

It annoys me so much that we seem to be trending back to those 'bad old days', that I'd be forced to replace the 4E skill system with something more like 3E before I'd be comfortable running an extended 4E campaign. I don't want to go back to the days where on paper, most of the heroes were abrasive morons.

 

[AllisterH]

What's the definition of SMART and DUMB?

I was under the impression it was any score that was 1 std deviation from the "average" of that race.

For D&D, this has always been 3d6 historically which nets you a score of 10.5 on average for all PC races (that didn't have INT modifiers).

Std Deviation of 3d6 is roughly 3.5 which means a score of 14 is definitely SMART while a score of 7 would be dumb.

Reason why I'm pointing this out is that it seems like unless you have a score of 18, you're not considered SMART.

A score of 17/18 is not just SMART, we're talking outside 2 std deviations, which is not just even MENSA level smart. This is freaking Stephen Hawking level smart.

 

[Ahglock]

What's the definition of SMART and DUMB?

I was under the impression it was any score that was 1 std deviation from the "average" of that race.

For D&D, this has always been 3d6 historically which nets you a score of 10.5 on average for all PC races (that didn't have INT modifiers).

Std Deviation of 3d6 is roughly 3.5 which means a score of 14 is definitely SMART while a score of 7 would be dumb.

Reason why I'm pointing this out is that it seems like unless you have a score of 18, you're not considered SMART.

A score of 17/18 is not just SMART, we're talking outside 2 std deviations, which is not just even MENSA level smart. This is freaking Stephen Hawking level smart.

Well in 3e+&4e D&D I'd says if your mod is -1 or more you are dumb, if your mod is +1 or more you are smart. There should be benefits to having stats that give you +1 or more and penalties for having -1 or more. The benefits or penalties should not be so large as to be a forced option.

 

[Kraydak]

I have no problems with the existence of dump stats, or character classes being aimed at archetypes (the tightness of the aim is its own issue). However, if you asked my to list popular roguey archetypes, I would answer sneaky+smart and smart+charismatic. When you design a rogue class you should design it towards popular archetypes, which mean that Int might edge out Dex as the *last* stat to be designed to be dumped. Rogue class design with int as a dump stat can be balanced mechanically easily enough, but it *fails miserably* at matching popular character concepts. Matching popular character concepts easily is the big advantage of class based systems.

 

[Atreides]

Edit to add. I guess my point is a good dump stat system is where dump stats are viable, a bad dunp stat system is where dump stats are mechanically encouraged.

This somes up my issue very concisely - a system which actively encourages dump states is disappointing - hopefully 4e does not have this issue - but it certainly may given what we have seen so far.

 

[Thundershield]

This somes up my issue very concisely - a system which actively encourages dump states is disappointing - hopefully 4e does not have this issue - but it certainly may given what we have seen so far.

Indeed. It would be sad if the DM cheerfully informed the party's Rogue that he'd gotten a +8 bonus to Intelligence (temporary or permanent, for whatever reason), and the player looks up and informs everybody that the bonus did absolutely nothing for him, besides increasing the character's vocabulary...

I mean, I love how they reworked the saves, allowing for more freedom in how where you put your points, but it had the nasty side-effect of making several stats worthless for classes, and to a greater degree than before, even.

"Dump stats" are bad. Make those numbers on your character sheet worth having there.