So Int does NOT add to skills

[ZombieRoboNinja]

If true...

I don't like how this makes investing in both of them a dumb move.

Agile and Clever characters get very little for being both. Better to be one or the other.

The change seems to vastly increase single-attribute dependency... the rogue not only doesn't need Int, but Wisdom is nearly useless to him as well (since Cha gives him the same defense bonus and plays into more class skills and abilities). And the wizard, who used to prioritize Int > Con > Dex, doesn't need Dex at all and barely needs Con... he's even MORE dependent on a single stat than in 3e.

 

[Celebrim]

The change seems to vastly increase single-attribute dependency... the rogue not only doesn't need Int, but Wisdom is nearly useless to him as well (since Cha gives him the same defense bonus and plays into more class skills and abilities). And the wizard, who used to prioritize Int > Con > Dex, doesn't need Dex at all and barely needs Con... he's even MORE dependent on a single stat than in 3e.

Indeed. In 3.X one of the things I really liked was that the system did alot to make generalists viable, especially at low to mid levels, such that you could reasonably choose to play a character who had alot of 14's and 12's and no particularly high or low attributes. Alot of classes got solid benefits from most or all of the attributes, and there was tradeoffs to be made in deciding what you wanted to be good at. I love that in a system because it somewhat reduces the number of one-diminsional 'Johnny One-Trick's that you see in play.

But in 4E not only does encourage you to focus strongly on a single attribute, but greatly weakens any penalty which you might have for being inept at something by automatically giving you 1 rank in every skill per two levels you gain and allowing you to choose between to stats for every defence.

I strongly suspect that you'll see alot of characters choosing attribute arrays along the lines of 16/16/15/8/8/8. In fact, if it were allowed, many classes would get a quite large advantage from something like 18/16/16/8/4/4.

 

[Felon]

On the other hand, suppose Int provides no general benefit that would make it a reasonable choice over Dex. No matter how many specific options there are for Int, not providing a unique general benefit would be bad of the 4e system.

I definitely agree with this.

The question is, what can it do, if it's not a skill point provider?

 

[WyzardWhately]

The scan of the Tiefling page shows that they get +2 INT and CHA. So, why are they listed as good rogues, but not good wizards? Anybody?

 

[Darkthorne]

I feel in 3.5 you HAD to have a dump stat, you needed 1 specific stat for a specific save. So part of your stat placement just for saves alone is restricting. I see having the better of two stats for your saves and the better of ref or Int for AC as well. That to me for example gives more options to explore. A 3.5 wizard would dump str, cha and wis. You would want a high Int for access to all spell levels. A good dex for the non autohit spells and AC so you didn't get hit followed by the highest con possible cause the wizard hp blew chunks. In 4th ed I don't NEED either a high dex or con. I can explore the options more readily of playing a high Cha wizard (advisor type) or a high Wis (all seeing type) or just for giggles I could dump points into str just for the novelty of it. (I have played characters that weren't optimized at all just to see how the combos would work, whether or not they survived long)

 

[Bold or Stupid]

Rougish racial feats? They suit being rouges?

 

[Campbell]

The scan of the Tiefling page shows that they get +2 INT and CHA. So, why are they listed as good rogues, but not good wizards? Anybody?

That line doesn't address what classes the race fits with mechanically. It's more of a thematic connection. They don't list paladins either despite, the race's Charisma bonus.

 

[WyzardWhately]

That line doesn't address what classes the race fits with mechanically. It's more of a thematic connection. They don't list paladins either despite, the race's Charisma bonus.

This seems contrary to the design philosophy underlying the rest of the game.

 

[hong]

I definitely agree with this.

The question is, what can it do, if it's not a skill point provider?

I posted before that Int can make you more versatile with what you know, rather than simply handing out bigger bonuses. I could see Int-based feats that do stuff like

- Reroll a skill check
- Bonus to a check, conditional on X
- Substitute one check for another
- Take 10 under pressure

Thus all other things being equal, the smart guy can jump just as far or orate just as well as the not-smart guy under ideal conditions. However, when things get hairy, the smart guy is able to think outside the square and come up with ideas that give him the edge. This would also be in keeping with what seems to be the general 4E idea of making things more involving beyond just a straight comparison of two d20 rolls (or one d20 roll vs a DC).

 

[Campbell]

This seems contrary to the design philosophy underlying the rest of the game.

How so?