So is an 18-year-old elf in diapers?

[coyote6]

There was an interesting recent study that talked about Neanderthal development and how they matured faster than humans, whom they would have potentially lived right next to. It talked about how 3 year old neanderthals might have played with 5 and 6 year old human children, because in size and development they would have been the same. By age 14 or so, they would be adults--not just because they needed to grow up fast in their harsh lifestyle, but because they literally would have reached full physical maturation.

I think that 5-10 years is plenty of difference in rate of maturation to get that weird, alien vibe; so something like half-elf or halfling ages works. But dwarven ages, or (especially) elven ages -- nah. It becomes, to me, not "interesting difference highlighting their alienness" but "absurdity that provokes silly images and hampers interesting plots" (e.g., any elf that was friends with a human as a child will probably only ever meet that human on his deathbed).

 

[d20Dwarf]

i think the concept of a "teenager" doesn't fit with D&D's pseudo-medieval society. Adolescence and the "teenager" are modern concepts, and are the result of how modern society is structured, rather than anything natural about human development.

Good post. We're losing the concept of adolescence and childhood in our culture as well, while still allowing kids to live without responsibility.

Back on topic, I kinda like the "wild elven" idea, where they are just feral beings for the first 100 years, then they grow into more cognitive beings. That's a cool idea.

Now what about dwarves? They ain't no pansie pixies for 100 years, let me tell you!

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

I always thought of it terms of different species different life span. A mouse lives on average 2 years or so (just read in the paper about an experiment on a mouse called Yoda that lived like 7 years or something) fruit flies live 24 hours, Dogs age 7 years for every human year. It's all the same. I remember reading that female elves carry the child for almost 2 years. What's long for use is just the way things are for them. I'm not looking at starting ages of the different races right now but it would be pretty easy to figure out. Just make comparisons between them and then adjust for age category. Physically a teen elf would look and act like a human teen adjusting for culture of course. Maybe teen elves are more like humans since they haven't yet lived long enough to realize that their going to be around a long time and might as well pace themselves.

 

[erian_7]

If you want an "official" answer (well, it used to be, back in 2e--maybe they cover this in the Races book for elves from WotC) you can look to the Complete Book of Elves (I know, I know, that books has some issues, but that's another thread...).

In Chapter 3: Physical Attributes under the Stages of Life we find that:

"Elves remain children for approximately 65 to 75 years. They grow slowly throughout these years, achieving a height of 4 feet at most. It is during this stage of life that they learn what it means to be an elf. They learn the basics of archery and swordplay. However, they are still essentially children and continue with their childish ways until they reach adolescence."

We later learn that:

"At about age 75, elves enter adolescence. Whether male or female makes no difference; both sexes mature at roughly the same time and at the same rate. This is the time of life when elves begin growing, some to a height of 5½ feet or more, although the norm is often approximately 5 feet.
The end of this period is also the age at which they are inducted fully into elven society—the age when they must bear the responsibilities of adulthood. It is during adolescence that older elves teach younger ones how to continue finding joy in the years to come without succumbing to the crushing boredom that advanced years often bring.
Those elves who were not prepared for the prospect of centuries stretching before them may fail to manage the weight of those years. Indeed, such elves (not to mention other beings given such longevity) often come to a terrible end if forced to live those hundreds of years. The most common example of this misfortune is an elf who grows up in a human community. Such elves do not let the years slide past as do other elves; instead, they try to cram as much living as possible into as short a time as possible—as do their human teachers. These elves don't learn the true value of relaxation and merriment, and these are often the elves who become insane or suicidal.
Of course, this isn't true of all non elf-raised elves, or even many of them. Most elves have an instinctive grasp of the way they should live so that they can enjoy the entirety of their lives."

And finally:

"When elves reach age 110, they are considered adults. They are allowed to make their own way in society, human or otherwise, and are free to make all personal choices. They are also ready to take responsibility for their actions—whether good or bad. Adult elves can now experience life fully, for they are fully grown and are in the prime of life."

All quotes Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

 

[Dark Jezter]

If you want an "official" answer (well, it used to be, back in 2e--maybe they cover this in the Races book for elves from WotC) you can look to the Complete Book of Elves (I know, I know, that books has some issues, but that's another thread...).

"Get back, foul book! Back!"

 

[dead]

If you want an "official" answer (well, it used to be, back in 2e--maybe they cover this in the Races book for elves from WotC) you can look to the Complete Book of Elves (I know, I know, that books has some issues, but that's another thread...).

This still doesn't tell us if an elven woman is pregnant for 20 years and in labor for 6 months.

I think the whole idea of elves living long lives is the fantastical theme of "eternal youth". It wasn't meant to be analysed too logically but in my game I'd have elves initially grow at a "normal" rate (ie. like humans) but progressively slow down in growth. So . . . it might take them 20 years to be a 10-year old human; 50 years to be a human teenager; 100 years to be a human 20-year old. After that, elves would "forever" look the same. You would never see an wrinkled elf granny, for example. If you were lucky, you might see one with a few grey hairs but she'd have to be 300+.

 

[Wycen]

A 1E elf certainly was wearing diapers if they were 18 years old. Back then, they had life spans numbering in the thousands of years. A gray elf would reach Venerable Age at 2000 years.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

Right, and you're saying elven children need 30 years to learn what a human child can in 6-8, so naturally I would have to assume that their rate of learning is much slower than a human.

No. I said "Maturity and ability to learn are not the same thing and are not necessarily related."

I think you are confusing learning with maturity. My point is that the maturity you perceive is the result of biological changes in your brain, not book learning or life experiences.

Consider this:
do you like to watch tele-tubies??

Why not?

Because you have "learned" that there are better things to watch, or because it is below your maturity level? Consider the elf that doesn't grow out of Sesame Street, Barney and Tele-tubies for 30 years.

Also, my argument ties to mechanics somewhat. The level system assumes a nearly human level of understanding and adaptation, but if an elf needs 5x as long as a human to learn, how can he possibly gain levels as quickly? That elf needs to jump 5x more pits, pick 5x more locks, and swing his sword 5x more than a human for his cognitive awareness of the act to grow.

That's stretching it, Will.

If you want to argue the merits of our arguments, I could say that my interpretation fits exactly with what the 3.5 rules say about what age elves mature at. And, my position is supported by the authors of 2e as well (as noted above).

Perhaps, after an elf reaches the abstract reasoning stage and gains control over his/her hormones, he is able to "learn" from experiences as easily as any human.

Perhaps adult elves have "learned" to use their time in Reverie (2e terminology) to "relive" those pits and traps and locks 5 times or more each night when they rest, thus keeping them up to speed with humans.

Perhaps, it’s just a failure in the rules that elves don't start with ECLs.

Hey wait! Some elves do (drow).

Also on the subject of teenagers and adolescence, note that humans today reach puberty much earlier than they ever did before (due to good nutrition and, perhaps, eating hormone enhanced meat products). In the "Middle Ages" most people didn't reach puberty until they were 15 or 16; about the same time they were becoming "adults." Which, by the way, is in the same neighborhood of "starting age" for humans in DnD.

Crazy.

One other point. Speaking purely from a biological perspective, it is the nature of all things to grow rapidly at birth. The rate of growth then slows dramatically over time until the body starts to deteriorate faster than it can replenishing itself. This is why your joints go bad, your eyes go bad, you lose your hearing, you become more susceptible to diseases with age, etc. All things that live follow that pattern, from humans to trees, to worms. Its got to do with growth hormones, telemiers, and all that other stuff I'm not qualified to talk about.

Logically, the elf's cycle of life would be similar. Obviously, if you prefer magical explanations, then logic has no place. However, without logic, this is a baseless conversation. Without logic, anything is possible.

Without logic, elves might be giant, single celled organisms that play orchestra music with their stomachs while eating alligator voices on February 31st. (ECL+1 )

 

[Steverooo]

I approached the problem a bit differently, for a Racial Background Skills article I wrote... An Elven PC of the same class as a Human one (with the same INT) has exactly the same number of skill points, even though (s)he has lived roughly five times as long... What did they do for all of those years?

To answer the question (for all the races), I turned first to the racial descriptions in the PHB, then the Monster Manual, and then to older editions. Boiled down, some'at, what I found for Elves was this:

They live in trees, and in communion with Nature. They are masters of magic, and all manner of lore. They speak many languages, their music and poetry are famed, and (despite it not being a favored class) they produce many Bards.

Now look at the skills set that this implies, for most, if not all Elves: Balance (to avoid falling out of the trees), Climb (to get into and out of them), Rope Use (to make and bind lashings, for those tree cities in communion with nature), Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, and Concentration (as "Magical Arts"), ALL of the 10-or-so Knowledge skills, Speak Languages/Decipher Script, Perform, and various arts and crafts (with the notable exception of Profession: Miner, which the PHB says that they don't do).

Now the PROBLEM is that beginning Elves (generally) have NONE of these skills! The same is true of Halflits, Dwarves, Orcs, etc.!...

So, what I did was to create a list of "Racial Skills", and allow PCs to chose various skills from their race's list, with a maximum of three skill points in any one skill (as they were pre-apprentice, at this point), IN ADDITION TO their normal number of class skill points (times four, at first level).

The difference is, class skill points can be spent on other skills, cross-class. With the exceptions of Crafts, Languages, and Professions, Racial Background Skills could not.

So, Half-Orcs could easily pick up skills listed in their racial description (chanting, drinking (brewing), drumming, singing), or beating on things (Craft: Armorsmithing, Blacksmithing, Carpentry, Cobbling, Weaponsmithing, etc). They would find it harder to learn Craft (Glassblowing). Halflits could more easily learn Survival and Escape Artistry, but have a harder time being cobblers.

All in all, I think it worked well... Elves have the largest skills set, and also the greatest starting age... Obviously, no Elf is going to be turned loose until (s)he has enough Balance and Climb to get around, and "school" for a race of magical Loremasters, who also devote much time and energy to various arts, crafts and professions, will take a very long time!

In short, it is society's expectations of Elves, and not slow maturation or slow cognition, which determines their age of "maturity". Beginning PC Elves of average INT should be Loremasters, compared to most other races. It has simply taken them a century (or so) to soak up all this knowledge!

That's MY answer, an' I'm stickin' to it!

 

[Bloodstone Press]

Back on topic, I kinda like the "wild elven" idea, where they are just feral beings for the first 100 years, then they grow into more cognitive beings. That's a cool idea.

I liked that too.