D&D 5E So Is The Dex Based Fighter Just Strictly Better?

[Oofta]

Yeah, honestly, if I was designing 5e I'd just make the AC for heavy armor a bit better. I mean, DEX is a slightly better option than STR, but if the STR fighter could also have an AC 3 points higher than the DEX fighter when in plate armor or something, well you'd have to really think that one through! I mean, DEX would still be a perfectly viable option (and maybe its 2 points higher AC where the sweet spot is, I'm not sure). I mean, it appears that HISTORICALLY the later forms of armor of the early 15th Century were a LOT better than even mail, forcing the employment of a whole specialized set of weapons to defeat them, and obviating the need for a shield. I think certain these 'full plate' type armors could justifiably move up an AC slot or two!

Or rename plate to plate mail (not fully articulated, joints were chain mail) and add full plate that's even better like we had in ye' olden days. While you're at it, fix the weight, it should be between 35-55 pounds with the heavier stuff being used primarily for jousting or cavalry.

 

[Helldritch]

Yeah, honestly, if I was designing 5e I'd just make the AC for heavy armor a bit better. I mean, DEX is a slightly better option than STR, but if the STR fighter could also have an AC 3 points higher than the DEX fighter when in plate armor or something, well you'd have to really think that one through! I mean, DEX would still be a perfectly viable option (and maybe its 2 points higher AC where the sweet spot is, I'm not sure). I mean, it appears that HISTORICALLY the later forms of armor of the early 15th Century were a LOT better than even mail, forcing the employment of a whole specialized set of weapons to defeat them, and obviating the need for a shield. I think certain these 'full plate' type armors could justifiably move up an AC slot or two!

I am currently toying with the idea that heavy armor can reduce damage by one to 3 points (plate 3 pts, splint 2 pts, and 1 point for the rest). Heavy armor master would stack and allow a magic weapon reduction of three. So plate could reduce damage by 6 on common weapons with heavy armor master and magical.weapon damage would be reduced by three with the feat. Not game changing, but something to think about.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Mostly false, I'd say. I'm not particularly old school. Like you probably wouldn't say Critical Role is particularly old school, and that's basically very close to my preferred style.


I have a recollection that the ones which had better hit bonus were usually the best choice, especially as riders of many powers relied on hitting. But I might be wrong, it has been a long time since I've played that edition.



Yeah, I think one could easily build a little more crunch on 5e chassis and that would allow having wider variety of weapons with mechanical niches.

Well, with 4e's weapons the thing was that the more vanilla weapons generally were just not paid much attention to. So, your basic war hammer, yes there are feats, including some of the 'fighting style' ones that can be applied to it, and all the core weapons are PRETTY WELL balanced out to begin with (some are more appealing than others, like there's not a ton of reasons to use a short sword, but that's not inherent to the weapon itself). The problem is that the more 'advanced' weapons ARE better, so you would replace your warhammer with a crag hammer, you just would, its outright better. OTOH it takes a feat to get that. Now, dwarves have a stupid good racial feat that grants access to it, so basically there are zero dwarves using basic warhammers (maybe a few that are clerics or whatever). Some entire classes of weapons never really got incredibly good as well. Like maces have some stuff, but basically its a blah weapon category. Someone tried to spice it up with the Ruthless Ruffian Rogue build, but it was still very slightly less optimum than other builds. Picks, just not really worth it. Even with that said though, there are some good mace and pick feats and whatnot, they're just not the 'gold' or 'sky blue' options. Basically, while the specific weapons that are 'best' and 'not best' differ slightly between 4e and 5e, the range of difference from best to 'worst' is pretty similar.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The issue is that it is a finesse weapon that does as much damage than the best one handed strength based weapons. And dex is otherwise more useful stat than strength, hence the topic of the thread.

Except it doesn't. It does as much damage as the best one handed strength based weapon assuming no feat support. And a fighter gets that extra feat at level 6.

The best one handed strength based weapon is, oddly enough, the spear. Polearm Master gets you an extra attack with your bonus action while still allowing you to both use a shield and dueling style. And it's ahead in terms of both AC and damage of the dex based equivalent of two weapon fighting plus the dual wielder feat even before you count the interrupt attack.

The thing is how much this matters depends a lot on the subclass. For a paladin with almost no bonus actions the extra attack(s) are well worth a point of Str bonus. By contrast for a Rune Knight with bonus actions to second wind, grow to giant size and get a damage bonus, and get resistance against all physical damage (hill rune) a longsword or dex based rapier might end up doing more dpr. And although a greatweapon rune knight might do more damage without any accuracy buff greatweapon master isn't that good. So the gap is small here.

Sure, there should be some sort of light piercing sword you can use with dex, but short sword already has proper and not unbalanced stats for that.

Agreed. The rapier is slightly overtuned - or (and possibly more accurately) the longsword and equivalent axe and hammer are slightly undertuned caused by versatile being not that great.

... and why was this thread resurrected?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, my recollection is that full plate was hard to find even when non-magical. Plate mail was kind of common, though, just as you say.

What do you think about allowing the full DEX bonuses for medium and heavy armor, but at the price that one's weapon proficiency must be in heavy or versatile martial melee weapons (no finesse weapons, not even via feats)? Would that be enough of a restriction to make STR-based fighters a viable alternative to the DEX-based fighter, or no?

Well, ORIGINALLY, in D&D, and this extends into 1e, there is no 'plate armor'. AC2 is the best natural armor class possible in the game, and its platemail. There are PLENTY of magical platemails. DMG P123, table III.F ARMOR AND SHIELD. It shows chain mail as 11% of all results, +3 being max enchantment. Plate Mail is 19% and up to +5 (and includes the special type Plate Mail of Etherealness). There's also a 4% chance of a cursed Plate Mail of Vulnerability. Shields make up 27% of the distribution, with +5 being the best (and a 3% chance of a cursed shield -1, missile attractor). There are quite a few splint and scale armors and a few others, with light armors never going above +1.

Plate armor (or plate mail depending on which book you are reading, the terms seem to be interchangeable) costs 400gp, so you will not be buying it before starting out at level 1 (unless the whole party really really badly wanted to chip in, which makes no sense). Banded armor is the next best, and is only 90gp (Splint is equally good, but heavier and 10gp cheaper). Banded is only 1 AC short of plate, so that or splint is the 1e starting armor of choice. Later books added in 'Field Plate' as an armor type, at some high cost, like 2000gp or something, and 1 AC better than plate (AC1). Few characters ever bothered, as by the time you had 2000gp to waste on a point of AC you probably had magic armor anyway! Magic armor in 1e has NO ENCUMBRANCE! This makes it rather stupidly better than Field Plate, which is never going to come up magical at random (though there's no reason it cannot be). Field Plate is also custom made for your PC, nobody else can wear it, and you can't find it in a usable size (though it is ambiguous if the "one size fits all" feature of magic armors would apply here).

The upshot being, VERY few characters will be forced to start with under Splint armor. Fighters start with 5d4x10 GP, so averaging around 125gp. Banded armor, a longsword, and a small shield is 115gp, leaving 10 for a kit of basic 'stuff', which should be sufficient to get you started. If you roll crappy, you might need to limit yourself to 75gp chain mail, or even the crappy 40gp Scale armor (AC 5 with a shield). In other words, your cash could definitely cut into your AC if you had some bad luck, though one or two of the other PCs would probably be wise to front you 10 or 20gp to get you a better AC. OTOH some players would rather hire a couple spear chuckers instead, go with ring mail, and hide behind them, lol. In any case, getting to level 2 fighter is almost sure to involve collecting around 1500gp, so 400gp for plate mail at that point is pretty much a given. VERY few PCs that could wear it would not equip plate ASAP.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I'm not saying that this is a good idea. In fact, it looks absolutely boring to play, and downright maddening for the DM and the other players (who will have no doubt gotten absolutely sick and tired of you begging, arguing, whining, and pleading for those three specific magic items over the course of your character's career, for no real reason other than "I Needs It For Muh Build"). But hey...it's possible!

That is was a good exercise, but even getting the items isn't a big deal.

Two (the gauntlets and headband) are just uncommon items, which is ridiculous IMO since they jump your scores to 19.
The amulet is only rare even, jumping CON to 19...

A PC by that level would easily be able to craft such items using the rules in XGtE.... sadly.

 

[ECMO3]

What do you think about allowing the full DEX bonuses for medium and heavy armor, but at the price that one's weapon proficiency must be in heavy or versatile martial melee weapons (no finesse weapons, not even via feats)? Would that be enough of a restriction to make STR-based fighters a viable alternative to the DEX-based fighter, or no?

I think this would do the opposite of what you want. Heavy Armor is the one advantage strength-based characters have and now you are letting people add dexterity bonus. This is going to encourage more dex builds because now dex combines with heavy armor.

 

[Neonchameleon]

What do you think about allowing the full DEX bonuses for medium and heavy armor, but at the price that one's weapon proficiency must be in heavy or versatile martial melee weapons (no finesse weapons, not even via feats)? Would that be enough of a restriction to make STR-based fighters a viable alternative to the DEX-based fighter, or no?

As I have pointed out the best fighters are Str-based, either with heavy weapons or with polearms. There is absolutely nothing needed to make STR-based fighters viable. The only issue is that the Versatile property is a ribbon ability, meaning that longswords & co are undertuned.

But allowing people to apply Dex to more things certainly won't help.

 

[ECMO3]

That is was a good exercise, but even getting the items isn't a big deal.

Two (the gauntlets and headband) are just uncommon items, which is ridiculous IMO since they jump your scores to 19.
The amulet is only rare even, jumping CON to 19...

A PC by that level would easily be able to craft such items using the rules in XGtE.... sadly.

Yeah I have used Gauntlets of Ogre power a lot on many of my 8-strength characters, I particularly like them on Rogues and Rangers and have bought them more than once.

I've never really been in a campaign where we had the time to craft items. I get that some campaigns do that but in most of the campaigns I am in we are saving the town/kingdom/world and it is one mission after another. Usually the only thing we really have time to craft is low level scrolls, potions and holy water.

The other thing to mention though is all three of those items use an attunement slot, so if you get all three (even by crafting), well that is what you are attuned to.

 

[Baumi]

Strenght has a subtle but cool advantage .. you are likely the only one who didn't dump it. So you can shine and be THE Hero whenever a door needs to be kicked, a Monster to be grappled or heavy treasure to be carried. 8D

Dexterity is (nearly) never dumped so you have enough teammates who do the sneaking and other nimble stuff.