D&D 5E So Is The Dex Based Fighter Just Strictly Better?

[Zardnaar]

I've not commented, but I've read this thread with great interest for the last week or so. This tangent brings up an intriguing point about which I've wondered for several days now. I agree that as the RAW stand, short swords and long swords feel pretty meh-y, especially compared to rapiers for fighters with strong DEX scores.

What I've been pondering, though, is the matter of armor and its limitations in 5e. In the original AD&D, plate armor or full chain mail armor didn't kill your DEX bonuses the way they do now (unless my middle-aged memory is betraying me yet again). What it did do, though, was cost a fortune. I'm considering going back to that arrangement for my party's next campaign. But my thinking here is that the medium and heavy armor ought to come with some kind of additional restriction, so my nutty notion this morning was, "Well, what if such armor precluded proficiency with finesse weapons?" (Hand-to-hand only--let's leave ranged weapons out of the hypotheticals for the moment.) That is to say, suppose going with medium or heavy armor required also going with the STR-based weapons, but at the benefit of a killer AC; might that work?

Plate was generally non magical, platemail was common enough.

The enchantment bonus applied to saves the armor would effect eg dragonbreath.

+5 chainmail was a lot more common than +5 full plate which rarely was over +1 if it was magical.

 

[Guest 7034872]

Plate was generally non magical, platemail was common enough.

The enchantment bonus applied to saves the armor would effect eg dragonbreath.

+5 chainmail was a lot more common than +5 full plate which rarely was over +1 if it was magical.

Yeah, my recollection is that full plate was hard to find even when non-magical. Plate mail was kind of common, though, just as you say.

What do you think about allowing the full DEX bonuses for medium and heavy armor, but at the price that one's weapon proficiency must be in heavy or versatile martial melee weapons (no finesse weapons, not even via feats)? Would that be enough of a restriction to make STR-based fighters a viable alternative to the DEX-based fighter, or no?

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah, my recollection is that full plate was hard to find even when non-magical. Plate mail was kind of common, though, just as you say.

What do you think about allowing the full DEX bonuses for medium and heavy armor, but at the price that one's weapon proficiency must be in heavy or versatile martial melee weapons (no finesse weapons, not even via feats)? Would that be enough of a restriction to make STR-based fighters a viable alternative to the DEX-based fighter, or no?

Probably overhauling the armor rules. Medium and heavy armors increase the Dex modifier by 1 or 2.

 

[Guest 7034872]

Probably overhauling the armor rules. Medium and heavy armors increase the Dex modifier by 1 or 2.

No, that's right--my whole idea there was to overhaul the armor rules so DEX bonuses apply fully. The downside to the heavier armors, then, is they're incompatible with finesse weapons and they cost a whole lot more money than the book says. The weight, STR requirements, and stealth debuffs I'd keep as they are.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I've not commented, but I've read this thread with great interest for the last week or so. This tangent brings up an intriguing point about which I've wondered for several days now. I agree that as the RAW stand, short swords and long swords feel pretty meh-y, especially compared to rapiers for fighters with strong DEX scores.

What I've been pondering, though, is the matter of armor and its limitations in 5e. In the original AD&D, plate armor or full chain mail armor didn't kill your DEX bonuses the way they do now (unless my middle-aged memory is betraying me yet again). What it did do, though, was cost a fortune. I'm considering going back to that arrangement for my party's next campaign. But my thinking here is that the medium and heavy armor ought to come with some kind of additional restriction, so my nutty notion this morning was, "Well, what if such armor precluded proficiency with finesse weapons?" (Hand-to-hand only--let's leave ranged weapons out of the hypotheticals for the moment.) That is to say, suppose going with medium or heavy armor required also going with the STR-based weapons, but at the benefit of a killer AC; might that work?

I mean, it might, but if they're fantastically expensive, you're not likely to see them until the party is rolling in cash (though, due to 5e's rather....unique....design choices regarding its economy, that is essentially inevitable.) The major issue is that you'll be pushing those options off into the high levels, which are the levels most people don't play, and thus for some games, you'll be soft-banning those items instead of making them cool but difficult to acquire.

 

[Guest 7034872]

True enough. My group does play the high levels, but even so I'll want to calibrate it to where an L5 fighter can afford some really good armor. So prices can't be completely stratospheric.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

No, that's right--my whole idea there was to overhaul the armor rules so DEX bonuses apply fully. The downside to the heavier armors, then, is they're incompatible with finesse weapons and they cost a whole lot more money than the book says. The weight, STR requirements, and stealth debuffs I'd keep as they are.

Do you mean "Cannot use the finesse property on a weapon" whilst in heavy armour? Or are you talking about knights not actually being able to use daggers?

In my experience, the party is usually pushing close to Tier 3 before they start being able to buy plate armour. Monetary value is a little tricky as a balancing factor however. Allowing Dex to apply in heavy armour would simply promote MADness in Fighters even more than it does so already..

 

[Horwath]

You could also just remove rapiers and make longbows strength based. Of course that would be a decrease of power, which doesn't seem to be in vogue.

it is always easier to sell +1 rather than -1...

 

[Guest 7034872]

Do you mean "Cannot use the finesse property on a weapon" whilst in heavy armour? Or are you talking about knights not actually being able to use daggers?

In my experience, the party is usually pushing close to Tier 3 before they start being able to buy plate armour. Monetary value is a little tricky as a balancing factor however. Allowing Dex to apply in heavy armour would simply promote MADness in Fighters even more than it does so already..

I was thinking the former: they can use the weapon if they want, but their DEX stats won't give them any bonuses. To-Hit and Damage bonuses in these cases would apply only from STR.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

On the bolded part: I fully agree with you on that one. Maybe allow ST crossbows as the Cranequin and the Windlass crossbows were gauged with different pulls in mind. The windlass is more of what I perceive as a "heavy crossbow" as the winding action allows for really great pulls.

As for p.64. This is strickly in the province of DMs adjudication and since missile weapons were already "exceptions" in which all bonuses from hit and damage from magic would stack (+1 bow, +1 arrow = +2 hit/dmg), almost all DMs I knew at that time would not allow these under any circumstances. The dragon magazine only codified it. So in effect, you were stuck with thrown weapons if you wanted to use Strength. A I do agree that it was not a good "optional" to put in practice. The solution we have now is a bit more elegant, but still, it makes dexterity the king stat of all stats.

Yeah, honestly, if I was designing 5e I'd just make the AC for heavy armor a bit better. I mean, DEX is a slightly better option than STR, but if the STR fighter could also have an AC 3 points higher than the DEX fighter when in plate armor or something, well you'd have to really think that one through! I mean, DEX would still be a perfectly viable option (and maybe its 2 points higher AC where the sweet spot is, I'm not sure). I mean, it appears that HISTORICALLY the later forms of armor of the early 15th Century were a LOT better than even mail, forcing the employment of a whole specialized set of weapons to defeat them, and obviating the need for a shield. I think certain these 'full plate' type armors could justifiably move up an AC slot or two!