So it's finally happened? D&D reduced to board games...

Erdrick Dragin

Banned
Banned
Rumors of this has circulated a number of years back, especially when WotC first acquired D&D. We thought it'd never happened and lashed at those who prophesied it would happen.

And it has. What's with D&D reduced to using cards like MtG? And now all these board games being released...BOARD GAMES!? Have we dumbed things down that much? Has D&D really lost its entire base and embraced the Mountain Dew/WoW crowd?

I fear for D&D as a whole. How do we get it sold to a more proper company (and not corporation) that will make the game for the sake of the game and not uber-profit?

Someone like...TSR was...minus the bankruptcy and random splat books issue.

WotC...I didn't want to believe you'd run this game into the ground, but I am seeing the signs myself. Please, sell it off. You're not going to make Blizzard's money with D&D. Ever. I mean, come on, rookie Paizo tied with you in sales. And, yet, you have the all-time famous TTRPG in the world to compete with and still nearly got wiped.

Sad times indeed.
 

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BobTheNob

First Post
Someone like...TSR was...minus the bankruptcy and random splat books issue.
Havent you really answered your own question there? Without a bag of cash at the end, which corporation in its right mind would pick it up?

TSR went backrupt, WOTC wont. Why? Because they know how to expand there market.

On the other hand, D&D could be run by a "fringe" group, but watch the quality drop through the floor and it become more and more of a closet hobby with an ever shrinking base.

Like it or not, reality has to come into this somewhere.
 

Thoras

First Post
I don't know, if it wasn't for the extremely limiting price tag these specialty board games always have, I could see it being a great intro to D & D. If they could somehow put it out for around $30 dollars, rather then sixty/seventy anyways.

I just read a review of how the new Wrath of Ashardalon game plays out, and it seemed to have a basic version of a lot of the core idea's. I think it would definitely be considered more mainstream then the main game and since I feel it has a lot of the core idea's there, it could have the potential to be a great hook into the "real" D & D.

No comments on the fortune cards.
 

Charwoman Gene

Adventurer
I read the situation very differently. I've met Mike Mearls, not a very in depth conversation, but he's probably the only poster on here I've met personally, and gamed with. (Although that was admittedly a demo.)

He really is a straightforward guy. He is not allowed to talk about certain things, due to corporate policies, but he really tries. He seems pretty confident that Wizards is committed to putting out D&D the tabletop RPG for the foreseeable future. I heard him on the Tome Show's recording of the D&D Q&A session, and he said that he can't see the ancillary stuff, like board games and stuff, even video games, without the core of the D&D brand staying as tabletop.

So what is my theory on what is happening? 4th Edition sales are below expectation, and declining as the amount of crunch has grown overwhelming. D&D R&D found a viable strategy to keep the game going for like the 5- 7 years before 5th, but it would have involved laying off half the department. So they pushed them into doing board games and other ancillary products, as a way of strengthening the brand in the long term.
 


DonAdam

Explorer
And now all these board games being released...BOARD GAMES!? Have we dumbed things down that much? Has D&D really lost its entire base and embraced the Mountain Dew/WoW crowd?

This is serious. Next thing you know they might release actual video games.

Pool_of_Radiance.jpg


We're too late!

Seriously, how do additional options--even introductory ones or board games--dumb down what's there?

If you want to be upset about something, be upset about the canceled books or character builder. New bad stuff won't ruin D&D. It hasn't for the past 30 years. A lack of good stuff might. And I doubt these products are sucking up many scarce design resources.
 

Abstruse

Legend
Obvious troll is obvious.

But let's assume for a moment this was genuine frustration. You've got three Player's Handbooks, two books that fill the same role, two DMGs, four monster books, a compiled rulebook, two books on dragons, a book on undead, a book on demons, two books on PC races, two item books, six class expansion books, three books on the planes, three place books, three campaign settings (one of which has its own monster book), a bunch of adventures, and a strategy guide. They've got another plane book, a book for "evil" character types for more races and classes plus expansions on previous races/classes, and a boxed super-adventure. That's not counting all the material in Dragon and Dungeon magazines. We don't exactly need a lot more books.

If you already own all the books, you've spent damn near a thousand dollars on D&D over the past three years. If you don't own them all, then why are you complaining they're not coming out with more when you haven't bought what they've already put out?
 


Robtheman

First Post
These boxed board games are actually quite a decent value. As a whole it is introduces some of the mechanics to new or younger players.

The individual pieces in the box are equally valuable to me as a GM.

Castle Ravenloft contains 20-30 (maybe a few more) miniatures of staple monsters (unpainted but that's okay), including 5 very nice boss worthy sculpts. Also the tiles can be used to create a pretty awesome dungeon without much difficulty, should you want to create a bit of a dungeon crawl for 4e.

It's a great value and harder to "pirate." I've made this point before, but I honestly hope these box board games and the Shadowfell campaign setting box set (releases in May) helps WotC gets some return on their investment from 4e.
 

ppaladin123

Adventurer
Rumors of this has circulated a number of years back, especially when WotC first acquired D&D. We thought it'd never happened and lashed at those who prophesied it would happen.

And it has. What's with D&D reduced to using cards like MtG? And now all these board games being released...BOARD GAMES!? Have we dumbed things down that much? Has D&D really lost its entire base and embraced the Mountain Dew/WoW crowd?

I fear for D&D as a whole. How do we get it sold to a more proper company (and not corporation) that will make the game for the sake of the game and not uber-profit?

Someone like...TSR was...minus the bankruptcy and random splat books issue.

WotC...I didn't want to believe you'd run this game into the ground, but I am seeing the signs myself. Please, sell it off. You're not going to make Blizzard's money with D&D. Ever. I mean, come on, rookie Paizo tied with you in sales. And, yet, you have the all-time famous TTRPG in the world to compete with and still nearly got wiped.

Sad times indeed.


1. I love card and board games. There is nothing to this claim that board games represent the dumbing down of a hobby. Have you played any of the Warhammer board games? How about any of the wave of German board games that have come out over the last 15 years? These are complex and interesting and fun. Importantly, they can be played in 30 minute to 3 hour blocks, don't require much prep time, and don't require any sort of player continuity over sessions. They scratch a different itch than a d&d campaign or serve as a substitute for people who can't run/play in d&d games regularly.

2. I like WoW. There is nothing wrong with liking WoW. I don't understand the need to use WoW as an invective. It is a silly, self-defeating proclivity of "nerds" to scorn those who have other, equally "nerdy" hobbies. Star Trek fans bash Star Wars. Tabletop role players look down on LARPers. Video game enthusiasts look down on board game enthusiasts. War gamers look down on role players. Whatever. We have so much in common yet we squabble like sectarians. How about a unified front?

3. It isn't even a good argument to claim d&d has become just like WoW since the advent of 4e. Roles are pretty much the only thing that 4e in particular has in common with WoW and those were present in MMOs before WoW. Pretty much every other similarity is the result of WoW consciously drawing on previous versions of D&D for class abilities and styles. Furthermore, asking what a class (or adventurer) contributes to an adventuring party is quite reasonable. Clerics were always, "leaders," even if we hadn't articulated the category yet. Likewise, rogues were always, "strikers." A lot of other classes had more ambiguous purpose. The people behind 4e set about to make sure that each class had something to add in combat and that that class could not render the rest of the party redundant. Then they gave each contribution type an easy to understand label. It is certainly reasonable to debate whether classes should be nested within roles (as in early 4e) or vice versa (as in the essentials line).That is a different topic though.

4. I am sorry you don't like the direction d&d is headed (I have worries as well) but it is not right to argue that those who work at WotC are therefore motivated by nothing but destructive greed. Some of the developers/designers post here. They are good guys and they clearly love this game. You have to love gaming to work in the gaming industry; it is not glamorous or high paying and there is very high turn-over. You might not like what they created but don't impugn their motives.

5. That said, the search for profit is always going to be part of the gaming industry. We'd all love it if we had designer slaves working in our basements to construct gaming systems to our idiosyncratic specifications. I'd love it if out of sheer joy and magnanimity Mike Mearls came to my house one day to construct D&D the ppaladin123 edition. But gaming companies need to pay printers and artists and game designers, and these people need food, clothing and shelter. Less profit means less money for releases, less money to hire talent, fewer maps, few pictures, less support. The market for tabletop rpgs isn't particularly large. WotC needs to capture as much of that market as it can and do what it can to expand the market as well. That means creating things they believe most gamers will like (even if you in particular don't like them). In that regard 4e may have been a miscalculation; I don't have data to assess that claim. Even if you dislike the 4e ruleset, you should root for its success. Anything that grows the base of gamers is a good thing. Anything that helps keep the term, "dungeons and dragons" fresh in public consciousness is a good thing.

6. Luckily even in this tiny market there is some room for niche games/systems. You may not be able to find a system that is exactly to your liking but I bet you can find something that you can house rule into acceptability. You want a game built purely out of love? Build it using the enormous selection of parts with which you have been provided.
 
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