So, Outsiders don't eat or sleep?

[I'm A Banana]

It doesn't work too well in Planescape where many Native Outsiders are from varioius outer/inner planes and most have never been to the Material Plane. Outsiders arn't really born as far as I know, they simply... are...

Since PS is my #1 setting, this is something I've dealt with at length.

(Extraplanar) does it's job well here. The problem, such as it is, is that these things are called Outsiders and not Monstrous Humanoids (extraplanar). As Outsiders, Bariaur conform to all the rules of Outsiders, and thus are expressions of the plane itself, made from nothingness. Bariaur aren't normal centaurs -- they're magical centaurs formed of the very essence of Ysgard. They are not born. They do not grow old and reproduce. They are not mortal. They are Of The Planes Themselves, as much as an elemental or Archon are.

This is vs. an Extraplanar Monstrous Humanoid, which would be a normal monstrous humanoid -- born, die, eat, sleep, mortal, mate, etc. -- who just happens to be from another plane.

The big reason it was quirky is that (Extraplanar) wasn't introduced until 3.5e. So some things that, in a PS sense, would probably be humanoids or monstrous humanoids (genasi, tieflings, aasimar, etc.) got set in stone as Outsiders at first, and remained that way going forward.

My advice for a campaign that's more true to PS cannon would be to make a lot of the races just Extraplanar. It does involve re-writing the rules a little bit (and so would be unacceptable for an Official Product), but it feels more right to say that a tiefling is born, rather than spontaneously coming into being made from the stuff of the lower planes. So the tiefling would be a humanoid (extraplanar) rather than an Outsider. The (native) subtype to me just reeks of a reach-around....those aasimar who were born and raised on the material plane would just be Humanoids (maybe with the planetouched or Good subtypes, to represent their link...most humanoids have a subtype based on their race, so this would be in line with what has come before).

 

[Alzrius]

Bariaur aren't normal centaurs -- they're magical centaurs formed of the very essence of Ysgard. They are not born. They do not grow old and reproduce. They are not mortal. They are Of The Planes Themselves, as much as an elemental or Archon are.

I think you need to check the Planar Handbook again. The bariaur is listed there as having an age table. The absolute oldest they can live to be is 225 years old, and then they die. Likewise, although not explicitly stated, this seems to be a pretty clear indicator that they're thus born, and sexually reproduce.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I think you need to check the Planar Handbook again. The bariaur is listed there as having an age table. The absolute oldest they can live to be is 225 years old, and then they die. Likewise, although not explicitly stated, this seems to be a pretty clear indicator that they're thus born, and sexually reproduce.

Which is, unfortunately, inconsistant with them being Outsiders. They should have at least been native outsiders.


The Extraplanar subtype is fun for Planescape. Everyone has the extraplanar subtype when not on their "native Plane," which I define as their plane of birth. This would mean that humans from the Beastlands (to give an example from my current campaign) are considered Extraplanar while on any plane but the Beastlands. Ooh, another fun thing about it is that those from the Transitive Planes do not exhibit the Extraplanar subtype anywhere! If you're from one of those planes, you're immune to Dismissal.

 

[Alzrius]

Which is, unfortunately, inconsistant with them being Outsiders. They should have at least been native outsiders.

Is it? What source material are you referring to, specifically?

Ooh, another fun thing about it is that those from the Transitive Planes do not exhibit the Extraplanar subtype anywhere! If you're from one of those planes, you're immune to Dismissal.

From the SRD:

No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

This just means that they don't have that subtype while there (and being born there, they wouldn't anyway). They still are Extraplanar when on any other (non-Transitive) plane.

 

[ThirdWizard]

As I recall, it's that no one has the Extraplanar subtype while they're on a Transitive plane...they still have it when not there. Thus, someone born on the Astral Plane will be Extraplanar on any other (non-Transitive) plane.

Ah you're right on that. I had misread.

Is it? What source material are you referring to, specifically?

Nothing specific. Just a bunch of different things. And, I'm not arguing RAW here, by the way, only consistancy.

Outsiders don't have to eat, sleep, or breathe. They don't have a separate soul. They're composed of the essence of the plane they are from. They arn't constrained by mortal biology, so I don't see why they would need to reporduce like mortals, either. They can, of course, reproduce sexually or Half-breeds wouldn't exist, but I don't think Celestials and Fiends make little Celestials and Fiends.

It doesn't say anything about aging, but I would venture forth that Outsiders typically don't age. Demons and Devils wouldn't age. Modrons don't age. Celestials don't age. Yes, there's nothing saying that they don't age, but traditionally they do not. You could easily say that some do, but I thought all this is what the Native type was created for in the first place. Native Outisders live like mortals, Outsiders do not.

 

[Alzrius]

Outsiders don't have to eat, sleep, or breathe.

Actually, Outsiders do still need to breathe.

They arn't constrained by mortal biology, so I don't see why they would need to reporduce like mortals, either. They can, of course, reproduce sexually or Half-breeds wouldn't exist, but I don't think Celestials and Fiends make little Celestials and Fiends.

Well, even by 2E standards they could reproduce sexually. Faces of Evil: The Fiends went most into detail about how fiends reproduce, which is about the most detail this topic received. Basically, if a female archon can get knocked up by a mortal to produce a Half-Celestial creature, she can get knocked up by a male archon to make a little archon also.

What makes it complicated though are that new Outsiders can also come into being from different ways also. Tanar'ri and Baatezu (although not Yugoloths) can make more of themselves through upgrading petitioners (usually NE larva), and then advancing through their hierarchies. I'm not sure if Archons and Eladrin have the same thing, but I think so. And likewise, some Outsiders are simply spawned from the plane itself.

I think that, given that only certain kinds of Outsiders can come from using petitioners, and others come from the plane itself, etc., then there's room to say some need to reproduce via mating.

It doesn't say anything about aging, but I would venture forth that Outsiders typically don't age. Demons and Devils wouldn't age. Modrons don't age. Celestials don't age. Yes, there's nothing saying that they don't age, but traditionally they do not. You could easily say that some do, but I thought all this is what the Native type was created for in the first place. Native Outisders live like mortals, Outsiders do not.

Well, again, I think there's room for diversity here. After all, mortals of various types live different lifespans; some Outsiders don't age, such as demons, devils, celestials, etc., and some do.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Well, again, I think there's room for diversity here. After all, mortals of various types live different lifespans; some Outsiders don't age, such as demons, devils, celestials, etc., and some do.

Maybe I just don't like the idea of a mortal Outsider.

 

[Remathilis]

You are correct, outsiders that do not have the native subtype do not
have to do such mundane things as eat or sleep. They would have to rest
for 8 hours if they were an arcane caster, or any other type of caster
that required rest, but they do not need to eat or sleep, so it is
similar to a ring of sustenance.

Have fun and good gaming!


Trevor
Customer Service Department
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496


-----Original Message-----
From: remathilis@XXXXXXX.XXX [mailto:remathilis@XXXXXXX.XXX]
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 4:49 PM
To: Wizards Customer Service
Subject: Game rules question - Dungeons & Dragons/Forgotten
Realms/Eberron Feedback

Game rules question - Dungeons & Dragons/Forgotten Realms/Eberron
Feedback
From: Ian (remathilis@XXXXXXX.XXX)

In the Planar Handbook, Bariaurs, Shadowswyfts, Neraph, and Wilders are
all outsiders but do not have the native subtype.
The Monsters Manual says that Outsiders that do not have the native
subtype aasimar and tieflings do not need to sleep, eat or drink, and
cannot be brought back from the dead.
Therefore bariaur, Neraphim, Shadowswyft and Wildren PCs do not need to
sleep eat or drink unless they want to.
Is this correct that these races basically have a free ring of
sustenance built in, or is it an oversight?
Sent to: custserv@wizards.com

Wow. Our Bariaur cleric and rogue modron fighter just got alot cooler...

Personally, I don't know if I like bariaurs and the like unresting, but that is RAW.

Tell my DM, I must. His decision, it will be.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Well, I'd say it's totally appropriate for Rogue Modrons to be type Outsider, with everything that entails-- including the near-automatic death sentence if they're ever banished.

Bariaur really ought to be Monstrous Humanoids, though.

 

[Arkhandus]

BTW, doesn't Sigil have its own strange planar qualities (if I recall correctly from 2E and such) that say it's not connected normally to the Astral, Ethereal, or Shadow planes, so teleportation, plane shifting, ethereal travel, shadow travel, dismissal, banishment, and any other travel or effects relying on other planes (i.e. the Astral, which is what teleported, banished, plane shifted, and dismissed creatures normally pass through), does not work in Sigil? I'm pretty sure it's the case. The only teleportation in Sigil is that you can teleport between points in Sigil, but can't teleport in or out of the Cage (i.e. onto the rest of the Outlands). And I'm not even sure that much TP'ing is possible in Sigil, from what I recall.

I'm pretty sure that the Manual of the Planes didn't address this (there's hardly 2 sentences or so on Sigil in it, damnit), but I don't have the Planar Handbook.