D&D 5E So...resting in 5e

[ad_hoc]

That's 1.5 combats a session.
That actually feels about average to me for most D&D campaign's I've played over the years.

Shockingly, I've played D&D games where sometimes a whole session goes by and there's no combat at all!

D&D isn't designed for this. Of course if you play a game against the way it is designed you're going to run into problems.

The problem here isn't the resting mechanics.

If you're getting in about 2 combats a session than I suspect you're not going to be waiting 6 combats before allowing PCs a long rest.

You have to factor in real world time considerations as well.

If you're having so few combats then why do the PCs need a long rest?

Why be concerned about the ability to cast Fireball when there is nothing to Fireball?

 

[Don Durito]

D&D isn't designed for this. Of course if you play a game against the way it is designed you're going to run into problems.

The problem here isn't the resting mechanics.

People always say this and it's rubbish. People have been using D&D to play all sorts of different campaigns for decades. Often to play all sorts of different genres within the same campaign. A few weeks ago, we were doing a dungeon crawl - now we're in town doing a mystery, now we're traipsing long distance through the wilderness etc.

So I think "doing it wrong" is a lazy copout. A certain level of robustness is necessary. Given the amount of repetition of this "you're doing it wrong" or "are you making sure you're getting in 6-8 encounters a day?" I see on the internet, then I think it's quite reasonable to say that most GMs are probably not doing it wrong - and the system just lacks robustness.

Although I do think it's better advice to say "are you using one of the long rest variants?" - because if GMs aren't getting in 6 to 8 encounters in a single day it's probably because they don't want to.

If you're having so few combats then why do the PCs need a long rest?

Why be concerned about the ability to cast Fireball when there is nothing to Fireball?

Are you following this at all?

The issue I was discussing was having the same number of combats per long rest - but spaced out over more real world time (and likely game time - though if your campaign was actually playing out in real world time than I guess this wouldn't necessarily be the case.).

So PCs need a long rest for the same reason they always need a long rest.

As for fireball - the issue is the difference between "should I cast my Fireball now or save it for a more important combat in about an hour or so" - or "should I cast my fireball now or save it for a more important combat in a week or two"? Strategically the situation is absolutely identical. It's just that the player may find it less satisfying in the second case.

When you have a big red button that says "be awesome now" you may get frustrated if you start to feel you never get to press it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

D&D isn't designed for this. Of course if you play a game against the way it is designed you're going to run into problems.
The problem here isn't the resting mechanics.

The problem is a game designed to be played only in a very narrow way. The resting mechanics are a small part of that - that can be tweaked to alleviate the problem, a bit, depending on the details.

If you're having so few combats then why do the PCs need a long rest?

After a while, human beings get sleepy. If there happens to be, say, 3 days between major encounters, there'll be some sleep between 'em. Say, "oh, long rests are a week" what happens when there's a month between 'em?
The basic assumption that pacing in terms of imagined in-game time will never much deviate from the pacing of encounters to rests prescribed by the game design's innate class & encounter imbalances is the heart of the problem. One solution (13th Age did it) is to make the latter pacing absolute, rests just happen after n encounters. Another is to vary the opportunities for rests with the pacing of the campaign. They're contrived in different ways.
(Obviously, there's the option of actually having a game with classes & challenges that are balanced without regard to pacing - 'encounter based' is one way of doing that.)

Why be concerned about the ability to cast Fireball when there is nothing to Fireball?

Oh, there's always /something/ to fireball. If nothing else, you can toss them into the sky at night as fireworks.

 

[ad_hoc]

People always say this and it's rubbish.

It's really not. It's the heart of the problem. If you take a game and try to turn it into something it's not and then have problems it isn't the game's fault.

Given the amount of repetition of this "you're doing it wrong"

Yes, you are 'doing it wrong'.

Now, I'm not telling you not to play that way.

I'm just saying, if you do, don't be surprised when there are problems and don't blame the game.

The game is achieving its' goals, it's just that the game's goals aren't your goals.

 

[Don Durito]

Ok well I guess there had to be at least one.

Unsurprisingly, I remained unconvinced by the restating of points I've already responded to.

 

[Prakriti]

Resting is one thing I think 5E got drastically wrong, especially retaining the short rest mechanic from 4E. I'd rather they had gone back to AD&D's resting system, which was basically 8 hours of rest = +1 HP and all spell slots recovered.

I tried removing short rests from the game one time and replacing them with a single long rest mechanic, but it was too much work. Too many mechanics are tied to short rests for easy removal.

 

[Don Durito]

Resting is one thing I think 5E got drastically wrong, especially retaining the short rest mechanic from 4E. I'd rather they had gone back to AD&D's resting system, which was basically 8 hours of rest = +1 HP and all spell slots recovered.

I tried removing short rests from the game one time and replacing them with a single long rest mechanic, but it was too much work. Too many mechanics are tied to short rests for easy removal.

Yeah, although short rests are much longer than 4E. In 4E they were 10 minutes which makes them a lot easier to fit in.

Someone upthread had the idea of making them five minutes but limiting the number you can take per long rest. I think that's probably a good idea. It essentially turns the short rest into a long rest mechanic.

In AD&D spell slots weren't recovered by rest. That took extra time (see the OP).

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yeah, although short rests are much longer than 4E. In 4E they were 10 minutes which makes them a lot easier to fit in.

5 min, not that it's an important distinction. In 1e they were the balance of the 10-minute turn in which the combat took place.

Someone upthread had the idea of making them five minutes but limiting the number you can take per long rest. I think that's probably a good idea. It essentially turns the short rest into a long rest mechanic.

It's on the arbitrary side. Just, a simple, per-encounter (or 'scene' for the story set) limit would be fine, too, without the rubric of 'resting' a certain number of minutes or hours to screw with pacing.

 

[Blue]

The resource recovery model / resting rules are my biggest single problem with a game I otherwise love. Actual play holds up the 6-8 with two short rests that the DMG recommends as a good balance point between the at-will classes, the short-rest classes, and the long-rest classes. But really, regularly running that many in a single day often does not fit the narrative I want to tell or the pacing I wish.

Doing fewer occasionally is fine - as long as you do more just as often. Alternating <6, 6-8, and 9+ encounters between long rests will let different types of characters shine on different days.

There is a persistent myth that fewer, more difficult encounters keep the balance between the classes. This is because it can keep the same level of deadliness and does force attrition. But that does not mean that it taxes all of the resource models the same way - it does not. And since those resource models are what the inter-class balance is built on, it favors some classes over the others.

A simple example. Consider a caster. Say you have a buff that lasts an entire encounter, and you use it every encounter. It should be clear 2-3 slots used casting it is less than 6-8 slots for a day with more encounters. Now think about a caster affecting foes. If there are more plentiful foes, an area of effect will likely catch more in the same area, making each casting more effective. If there are more powerful foes, because of the nature of only two good saves then a save-or-suck spell will have the same chance to affect them, and each on taken out in more value of enemy negated. Finally, a caster only has a limited number of slots, and then relies on cantrips that are less powerful - if there are less total rounds of combat, and you only have one action per round, that means that more of those actions are using a spell slot instead of a cantrip. (This works the same when you ignore the low level slots that are useful for utility but do less than cantrips in higher tiers.)

My next campaign I'm using the DMG variant of a week for long rests and a overnight for a short rest, with the caveat that there are times when a long rest will be quicker. Resting at Elron's (LotR) is a sanctuary that will give you a long rest even if just overnight. I can fake it with things like a magical fountain that gives one sooner if I'm doing a classic dungeon crawl, though my group likes the 5 Room Dungeon concept better. This is to hit the number of encounters I want between rests, something under my control as DM. It allow me the pacing I want for the story while being supported by the mechanics.

But really, I'm spoiled by how 13th Age does it. They have the rather gamist solution of that a Full Heal-Up ("long rest" equivilant) happens every 4 battles. Could take place over three weeks of travel, or in a single day. The DM can give it sooner if they think the encounters were particularly tough. And the players can take one ealrlier but they suffer a campaign setback, such as reinforcements getting to their foes, the cultists completing another stage of their ritual, the werewolves turning another commoner into a lycanthrope, or whatever makes sense.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The resource recovery model / resting rules are my biggest single problem with a game I otherwise love. Actual play holds up the 6-8 with two short rests that the DMG recommends as a good balance point between the at-will classes, the short-rest classes, and the long-rest classes. But really, regularly running that many in a single day often does not fit the narrative I want to tell or the pacing I wish.

Apropos of very little, there actually aren't a lot of short-rest classes. Warlock, Monk, BM Fighter. At will? Rogue (other than AT), Champion Fighter.

Ask yourself, can we live without the above? Just EKs, ATs, and the other remaining full classes?
I think the answer's 'yes.'

At that point, you just have to worry about the balance among the full casters, 1/2 or 1/3rd casters, and the n/day Rage-bomb barbarian.

There's how many 1/2 casters? Yeah, majority rules. Just run all-full casters. Now the only deal with pacing is how hard the encounters are.

D&D. Fixed.

But, who'll do melee? War Cleric, Valor Bard, Moon Druid, henchlings, hiremen, golems, pets, companions, summons - whatever the Artificer or Necromancer cooked up this week.

Doing fewer occasionally is fine - as long as you do more just as often. Alternating <6, 6-8, and 9+ encounters between long rests will let different types of characters shine on different days.

Yeah, maintain that average can be taxing. A single-encounter day requires half a dozen 9 encounter days to offset.

There is a persistent myth that fewer, more difficult encounters keep the balance between the classes. This is because it can keep the same level of deadliness and does force attrition.

Barbarians, for instance, do pretty well in that model.

But really, I'm spoiled by how 13th Age does it.

13A is generally good design. It set out with many of the same goals and parameters as 5e, but generally found better solutions. Full heal-ups are just one example. Handling TotM's another big one.