So sell me on the Arcane Trickster...
- Thread starter Quidam
- Start date
Shard O'Glase
First Post
The big reason is full spellcaster advancement. You basically only lose your initial 4 rogue levels in spellcasting power.
Rogue wise you only get 4 skill points a level, but if you multied your wizard 2 kill points a level would of only average you 5 with our rogue levels so a loss of 1 skill point
HP are d4, but since you have d4 and d6 it aint much of a loss
saves work to your advantage with 2 good saves working simo instead of one at a time.
You lose a tiny bit of fighting skill bab 11 vs bab 12 but again it all comes to spellcasting power. (either end up with wizard 10 spellcastin power or wizard 16)
Add in the couple extra perks like rogue skills at range, and spontaneous sneak attack and it is well worth it.
(this is slightly power-gamey but if you happen to get 2 knowledge skills up to 10, and then take skill focus in a knowledge skill, you only have to take 3 levels of rogue to get the exclusive skill up to 7 ranks by taking a level in loremaster prestige class, this lets you get to 17th level spellcasint power or 9th level spells)
Rogue wise you only get 4 skill points a level, but if you multied your wizard 2 kill points a level would of only average you 5 with our rogue levels so a loss of 1 skill point
HP are d4, but since you have d4 and d6 it aint much of a loss
saves work to your advantage with 2 good saves working simo instead of one at a time.
You lose a tiny bit of fighting skill bab 11 vs bab 12 but again it all comes to spellcasting power. (either end up with wizard 10 spellcastin power or wizard 16)
Add in the couple extra perks like rogue skills at range, and spontaneous sneak attack and it is well worth it.
(this is slightly power-gamey but if you happen to get 2 knowledge skills up to 10, and then take skill focus in a knowledge skill, you only have to take 3 levels of rogue to get the exclusive skill up to 7 ranks by taking a level in loremaster prestige class, this lets you get to 17th level spellcasint power or 9th level spells)
Laslo Tremaine
Explorer
I agree the the level is Loremaster is pretty power-gamey! But I like it! 
Lets take a look at how I would do an Arcane Trickster vs a Rog/Wiz. Both of these are on a 30 point buy with the following starting stats: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Chr 10.
Rogue 10/Wizard 10
BAB: 12
Hit Points: 73 (assuming average hit points)
Skill points 152 (not counting Int Bonus)
Saves: For 6, Ref 10, Wil 10
Highest Spell lvl: 5th
Sneak Attack: +5d6
Other gains: Rogue Special Ability; better familiar; extra wizard feat; can't be flanked.
Rogue 5/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10
BAB: 10
Hit Points: 68 (assuming average hit points)
Skill points 132 (not counting Int Bonus)
Saves: For 5, Ref 12, Wil 12
Highest Spell lvl: 8th
Sneak Attack: +8d6
Other gains: Ranged Legerdemain 3/day; Impomptu Sneak Attack 2/day
So by taking the Arcane Trickster you are a slightly worse Rogue and a much better Wizard, plus your sneak attack is greatly improved. What you give up is a few hit points, some skill points, a few points of BAB, a wizard feat, some familiar enhancements and your 10th level Rogue special ability.
As far as I am concerned, the improved Sneak Attack and the ability to cast 6th, 7th and 8th level spells more than makes up for any loses.
(edited for formatting)
Lets take a look at how I would do an Arcane Trickster vs a Rog/Wiz. Both of these are on a 30 point buy with the following starting stats: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Chr 10.
Rogue 10/Wizard 10
BAB: 12
Hit Points: 73 (assuming average hit points)
Skill points 152 (not counting Int Bonus)
Saves: For 6, Ref 10, Wil 10
Highest Spell lvl: 5th
Sneak Attack: +5d6
Other gains: Rogue Special Ability; better familiar; extra wizard feat; can't be flanked.
Rogue 5/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10
BAB: 10
Hit Points: 68 (assuming average hit points)
Skill points 132 (not counting Int Bonus)
Saves: For 5, Ref 12, Wil 12
Highest Spell lvl: 8th
Sneak Attack: +8d6
Other gains: Ranged Legerdemain 3/day; Impomptu Sneak Attack 2/day
So by taking the Arcane Trickster you are a slightly worse Rogue and a much better Wizard, plus your sneak attack is greatly improved. What you give up is a few hit points, some skill points, a few points of BAB, a wizard feat, some familiar enhancements and your 10th level Rogue special ability.
As far as I am concerned, the improved Sneak Attack and the ability to cast 6th, 7th and 8th level spells more than makes up for any loses.
(edited for formatting)
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wolff96 said:
True? I asked the other player if Cosmo worked on exclusive skills, and he said it worked on any skill. Too bad there aren't online rules compilations beyond the core stuff, since my rulebooks are at home.
I'll have to look it up later and deliver the bad news.
-Skaros
Dr_Rictus
First Post
Ye gods, man! I'm shocked that you need convincing.
Compare to a single-classed wizard. You give up your familiar's advancement and a feat every five levels. In return, you get more skill points, better selection of class skills, better saves, sneak attacks, and special powers.
In short, if you qualify for the class and are allowed to take it by your DM, you'd almost be mad to ever take a Wizard level again unless you had already reached Arcane Trickster 10.
I could imagine choosing between alternating Rogue/Arcane Trickster (in some proportion) and just taking Arcane Trickster levels, but alternating Rogue/Wizard isn't even in the running, in my opinion.
Compare to a single-classed wizard. You give up your familiar's advancement and a feat every five levels. In return, you get more skill points, better selection of class skills, better saves, sneak attacks, and special powers.
In short, if you qualify for the class and are allowed to take it by your DM, you'd almost be mad to ever take a Wizard level again unless you had already reached Arcane Trickster 10.
I could imagine choosing between alternating Rogue/Arcane Trickster (in some proportion) and just taking Arcane Trickster levels, but alternating Rogue/Wizard isn't even in the running, in my opinion.
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Thanee
First Post
Well, the only thing you'll lose effectively, is the access to the nice rogue abilities at level 10+, but you can compensate this with a lot more power for your spellcaster side.
Not really hard to decide!
Rogue 4/Wizard 6/Arcane Trickster 10
This will even give you 11 BAB at Level 20!
Bye
Thanee
Not really hard to decide!
Rogue 4/Wizard 6/Arcane Trickster 10
This will even give you 11 BAB at Level 20!
Bye
Thanee
Shard O'Glase
First Post
Skaros said:
there is a feat in kalamr's players guide that turns a # of cross class skills into class skills or a # of exclusive skills into cross class skills equal to your int. If let in the game I could se a DM letting someone with enough of a int bonus turn something from a exclusive to a cross class and then from the cross class to a class skill.
Quidam
First Post
thanks
Thanks for all the replies- I was already pretty sold, but hadn't done a thorough comparison yet. I reckoned many of you already had, and lo! you did.
My Wiz5/Rog2 is taking Wiz up to 7th (he wants an air mephit familiar) then one more lvl in Rog and he's qualified. Might be a bit late, but a familiar who fast heals just by fanning itself with its wings, flies perfectly, and has a breath weapon certainly doesn't suck.
Thanks for all the replies- I was already pretty sold, but hadn't done a thorough comparison yet. I reckoned many of you already had, and lo! you did.
My Wiz5/Rog2 is taking Wiz up to 7th (he wants an air mephit familiar) then one more lvl in Rog and he's qualified. Might be a bit late, but a familiar who fast heals just by fanning itself with its wings, flies perfectly, and has a breath weapon certainly doesn't suck.
