So, Wandavision?

[Paul Farquhar]

Ummm Neither Bucky nor Falcon mention D&D when discussing it in the clip over in the winter solider thread. For the purposes of the MCU, we have sorcerers and witches, no wizards.

Unless stated otherwise, fiction in the MCU is the same as in our world: The Dick van Dyke Show, Bewitched, The Hobbit and D&D. It stands to reason that Falcon, like most Americans of his generation, would use D&D as a point of reference for understanding "real world" magic.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Had they had revealed Agnes as a member of that order

They have revealed that Agnes works for no-one but Agnes.

 

[trappedslider]

Unless stated otherwise, fiction in the MCU is the same as in our world: The Dick van Dyke Show, Bewitched, The Hobbit and D&D. It stands to reason that Falcon, like most Americans of his generation, would use D&D as a point of reference for understanding "real world" magic.

assuming he played/knows about D&D, is there any indication that he's had any interaction with D&D or other RPGS? Has anyone actually identified themselves as a wizard as opposed to a sorcerer? All we have so far are Witches and Sorcerers.
Thus until someone self-identifies as a wizard, all we have are Sorcerers and Witches at least IMO.

 

[Imaculata]

I think the destinction between sorcerers and wizards exists only in D&D. To the rest of the world, they are one and the same.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think the destinction between sorcerers and wizards exists only in D&D. To the rest of the world, they are one and the same.

Indeed. Apart from the hats.

But in the MCU there is a distinction between sorcerers and witches (and who knows how many other magic wielders?).

 

[MarkB]

Indeed. Apart from the hats.

But in the MCU there is a distinction between sorcerers and witches (and who knows how many other magic wielders?).

I don't think there's a particular distinction in terms of capabilities and power source. I expect Doctor Strange could learn and cast the same spells Agatha does, and vice versa, for instance.

The only real distinction is which group originally trained them, and what they choose to call themselves.

 

[ART!]

I think the destinction between sorcerers and wizards exists only in D&D. To the rest of the world, they are one and the same.

I think "sorceror" has a more negative connotation than "wizard", broadly speaking. I'd wager that most people hear "sorceror" and think they're probably up to no good - moreso than when they hear "wizard".

 

[MarkB]

I think "sorceror" has a more negative connotation than "wizard", broadly speaking. I'd wager that most people hear "sorceror" and think they're probably up to no good - moreso than when they hear "wizard".

Look at Star Wars, for example. Ben Kenobi is introduced as "that wizard is just a crazy old man", whereas Vader is challenged by an Imperial officer who's foolish enough not to be intimidated by his "sorcerous ways".

 

[billd91]

Unless stated otherwise, fiction in the MCU is the same as in our world: The Dick van Dyke Show, Bewitched, The Hobbit and D&D. It stands to reason that Falcon, like most Americans of his generation, would use D&D as a point of reference for understanding "real world" magic.

I think there are much stronger alternative possibilities:
The Lord of the Rings movies. Gandalf was a wizard, he wore a hat.
People mostly know what a wizard's hat is - but anyone ever heard of a sorcerer's hat outside of Disney's Fantasia (1940)?

Without an explicit reference to D&D or a lot more evidence, I don't think it stands to reason that Falcon or even most Americans of his generation would use D&D as a point of reference for understanding real world magic.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I don't think there's a particular distinction

There is a very strong visual distinction:

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There is a very strong visual distinction:
View attachment 134232View attachment 134233

Very very bad comparison, but also a very different type of magic being employed. Strange could definitely use chaos magic, and there is no reason to think Wanda couldn’t learn the magic Strange uses, they just learned magic from very different sources, but it’s all learnable.

But more importantly, in marvel they’re all sorcerers. Strange is the Sorcerer Supreme, Wizard isn’t really a term used in the MCU, and witch seems to mean a cultural difference and a difference of approach, but it isn’t super clear yet because they haven’t dove into exposition on the subject yet.

 

[tomBitonti]

It seemed to me that Falcon was brushing aside the differences. To him, both Wizards and Sorcerers are both just folks who use magic, with minor differences in presentation. Bucky was having a nerd moment and Falcon was saying, ”Dude, I don’t care”.
TomB

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Very very bad comparison,

Best pics I could find. Couldn't find anything of Agatha slinging spells, but it's pretty much the same as Wanda but purple. No drawing runic circles in the air.

but also a very different type of magic being employed. Strange could definitely use chaos magic

I'm pretty sure only a scarlet witch, or someone who steals the powers of a scarlet witch, can use chaos magic. If anyone could use it Wanda wouldn't be important. That's kinda the point.

, and there is no reason to think Wanda couldn’t learn the magic Strange uses

Sorcery is learnable by anyone.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Best pics I could find. Couldn't find anything of Agatha slinging spells, but it's pretty much the same as Wanda but purple. No drawing runic circles in the air.

I'm pretty sure only a scarlet witch, or someone who steals the powers of a scarlet witch, can use chaos magic. If anyone could use it Wanda wouldn't be important. That's kinda the point.

No, it isn’t. At all. On any level. The idea with her magic is that she does it naturally, without any knowledge, not that only she can do that type of magic. Agatha wants her power, not her...access to a dangerous type of magic.

Sorcery is learnable by anyone.

And multiple witches have been shown learning magic, including from the tradition of magic Strange practices.

The terms are not as distinct in the MCU as they are in D&D .

 

[Paul Farquhar]

No, it isn’t. At all. On any level. The idea with her magic is that she does it naturally, without any knowledge, not that only she can do that type of magic. Agatha wants her power, not her...access to a dangerous type of magic.

I take it you didn't watch WandaVision....

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I take it you didn't watch WandaVision....

I did. Did you? She wants Wanda’s raw power, just like what she drained from her coven.

 

[ART!]

I did. Did you? She wants Wanda’s raw power, just like what she drained from her coven.

Right. We're not given any reason to think Agnes' plan is flawed, so the power she was sucking out of Wanda was her innate chaos magic power. Agnes' figured that power combined with her skill and experience would make her incredibly powerful.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Right. We're not given any reason to think Agnes' plan is flawed, so the power she was sucking out of Wanda was her innate chaos magic power. Agnes' figured that power combined with her skill and experience would make her incredibly powerful.

Yep. Draining Wanda's power would have made her unimaginably powerful, on top of her hundreds of years of experience and knowledge.

 

[Tonguez]

There is a very strong visual distinction:

The magic used by the Masters of the Mystic Arts is very distinctive in as much as it uses particular Tao Mandala to defend and contain spells. That does not however mean that all Scorcerers in the MCU use mandala.

Of the other spell users we’ve seen Loki, Hela and Ghost Rider* (AoSHEILD) they do not use Mandala, The known witches including Wanda, Agnes, Agnes’ Mother/Coven, Thors mother, Morgana Le Fay and Tina and Nico Minoru also do not use Mandala.

That just tells us we dont have enough data to identify exactly what a Scorcerer is in the MCU

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

The magic used by the Masters of the Mystic Arts is very distinctive in as much as it uses particular Tao Mandala to defend and contain spells. That does not however mean that all Scorcerers in the MCU use mandala.

Of the other spell users we’ve seen Loki, Hela and Ghost Rider* (AoSHEILD) they do not use Mandala, The known witches including Wanda, Agnes, Agnes’ Mother/Coven, Thors mother, Morgana Le Fay and Tina and Nico Minoru also do not use Mandala.

That just tells us we dont have enough data to identify exactly what a Scorcerer is in the MCU

Some of those are not canon, though, specifically all the ones from a TV series that is not Disney+ and from movies not co-produced by Marvel.