D&D 5E So Was That Z Fellow right?

[FrogReaver]

That's correct.



Unless I misunderstood you, you said to use Precision Attack when within 4. If I had followed your instructions, there would have been one more miss in the first 20 attacks and one more hit in the second 20. It would not have changed the average by much.

I mean, you can try to save PA for only attacks that miss by 1 (or whatever), but due to the randomness of the dice in some fights you might never hit that mark, and your superiority dice would go wasted as a result. If this build takes a short rest without using all dice, you've either been exceptionally lucky or you've failed to maximize your damage (IMO). Even within 5 gives you better than 50% odds of hitting (although I think your within 4 is a good rule of thumb).

Yeah, my bad, I misspoke regarding the rounds. It should have been attacks. It was a long post and I was doing other things in between, so I got a little mixed up regarding terminology.

It actually fluctuates a bit as you add more attacks and get more and higher superiority dice. I think it varies between 3 and 5 if I remember correctly. 5 being early when you first get superiority dice and just have an attack and bonus action attack. At level 5 it drops down closer to 3. At level 7 when you get another dice it gets up again closer to 4 etc.

 

[Fanaelialae]

A valid point. Though it's also not hard to estimate the AC of monsters with a good enough description of the creature by the DM. Then every attack made against such a creature gets you a little closer to it's actual AC. Also many times you fight the same monster more than once in a day. So once it's AC is found it's found for all time. Still it's valid to note, but I don't have anyway to accurately estimate how often this will be an issue and it will vary by campaign somewhat. From my personal experience, it's been very easy for me to use precision attack the way I desire to without knowing a monsters AC, though I have occasionly misjudged. I'm usually the guy trying to keep himself from calling out that an attack hit before the DM says it because I already know once I see anyones roll if it did or not.

Yeah, it's hard to say one way or the other. I simply felt it was worth noting.

If we were talking about a melee battlemaster maybe (though I think trip attack is over estimated by most people). As a ranged battlemaster I'm not nearly as impressed with mentioning it anyways. It gets in the way of what i'm trying to do which is kill enemies from range. I can't think of any other maneuver that really ups group DPR other than that one. Maybe you could count commanders strike if you have a high level rogue in the party?

I disagree. A ranged character can certainly offer team support beyond just killing things. There's also Distracting Strike for helping an ally damage the enemy. Additionally, there are defensive support options like Goading Attack.

He still wants sharpshooter just to ignore cover. Otherwise his damage is going to be even lower than expected a decent amount of the time.

Since you are a fighter and have CE, there's no reason you can't mix it up at close or mid range. Even without a shield, you can take a few shots. If you don't mind getting close to the enemy, cover is largely meaningless.

 

[FrogReaver]

That's correct.



Unless I misunderstood you, you said to use Precision Attack when within 4. If I had followed your instructions, there would have been one more miss in the first 20 attacks and one more hit in the second 20. It would not have changed the average by much.

I mean, you can try to save PA for only attacks that miss by 1 (or whatever), but due to the randomness of the dice in some fights you might never hit that mark, and your superiority dice would go wasted as a result. If this build takes a short rest without using all dice, you've either been exceptionally lucky or you've failed to maximize your damage (IMO). Even within 5 gives you better than 50% odds of hitting (although I think your within 4 is a good rule of thumb).

Yeah, my bad, I misspoke regarding the rounds. It should have been attacks. It was a long post and I was doing other things in between, so I got a little mixed up regarding terminology.

If you can devise a good way to estimate the number and chances for superiority dice to go unused by a short rest I would be interested. That's something I haven't ever added into the analysis. I just kind of base it off average number, even though some days you will have extra and some days you won't have enough because random rolls and all.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yeah, it's hard to say one way or the other. I simply felt it was worth noting.




I disagree. A ranged character can certainly offer team support beyond just killing things. There's also Distracting Strike for helping an ally damage the enemy. Additionally, there are defensive support options like Goading Attack.



Since you are a fighter and have CE, there's no reason you can't mix it up at close or mid range. Even without a shield, you can take a few shots. If you don't mind getting close to the enemy, cover is largely meaningless.

Fair enough. Then a different playstyle. That's fine. Basically anything that helps a melee character at that point helps you too. So trip attack functions the same for you as any other melee etc. You can ignore cover as you are trying for melee range anyways. The only downside is the less starting range may mean you miss out on some first turn attacks that the sharpshooter CE character might get. That should come up rarely as your effective range is about 60ft counting movement and range and you can still shoot at stuff further just with disadvantage.

I'm not sure I'm ready to have the trip attack sidebar again yet. Can we just say it's usefulness varies highly based on party tactics, party composition, enemy size and enemy str score?

 

[Fanaelialae]

If you can devise a good way to estimate the number and chances for superiority dice to go unused by a short rest I would be interested. That's something I haven't ever added into the analysis. I just kind of base it off average number, even though some days you will have extra and some days you won't have enough because random rolls and all.

Yeah, unfortunately I don't have a good way for real world application.

You could estimate it for someone who knows the AC accurately. That's simply the chance of not rolling X in Y number of rolls. X would simply be the numbers that are your target for using PA. As long as you know what the target range is, and how many rolls you are making, it can be calculated.

But if we assume that you're guessing the AC, that goes out the window. We'd need to decide how accurately the person can guess the AC, and I have no idea how you'd figure that out. It would likely be different from player to player.

That said, I believe it would have a relatively small impact on the expected damage anyway.

Where it could have a significant impact is at the gaming table. While you can reasonably assume that you'll average somewhere around the expected damage value over the course of a campaign, for any given encounter it could vary wildly simply due to the randomness of the dice. It's all well and good to say that you should only use precision attack when within X of the AC, but if you're in a dangerous encounter and your d20s have abandoned you, this build might need to consider using PA anyway (because you can't use unspent superiority dice if you're dead). A player should keep in mind that a rule of thumb is just that. Most of the time you should heed it, but there will likely be times to ignore it and roll the dice.

Those types of scenarios are not something you can really account for in such generalized examples (like the one I provided) though. It's just something to keep in mind.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yeah, unfortunately I don't have a good way for real world application.

You could estimate it for someone who knows the AC accurately. That's simply the chance of not rolling X in Y number of rolls. X would simply be the numbers that are your target for using PA. As long as you know what the target range is, and how many rolls you are making, it can be calculated.

But if we assume that you're guessing the AC, that goes out the window. We'd need to decide how accurately the person can guess the AC, and I have no idea how you'd figure that out. It would likely be different from player to player.

That said, I believe it would have a relatively small impact on the expected damage anyway.

Where it could have a significant impact is at the gaming table. While you can reasonably assume that you'll average somewhere around the expected damage value over the course of a campaign, for any given encounter it could vary wildly simply due to the randomness of the dice. It's all well and good to say that you should only use precision attack when within X of the AC, but if you're in a dangerous encounter and your d20s have abandoned you, this build might need to consider using PA anyway (because you can't use unspent superiority dice if you're dead). A player should keep in mind that a rule of thumb is just that. Most of the time you should heed it, but there will likely be times to ignore it and roll the dice.

Those types of scenarios are not something you can really account for in such generalized examples (like the one I provided) though. It's just something to keep in mind.

Oh I agree. DPR isn't everything. Sometimes it's better to do something now even if later you could edge out more DPR. You have that option and flexibility if needed. Either with using precision on something outside the desired range for the chance it helps now or using a damage maneuver to try and kill a monster now that you think is weak on hp. I'm sure there's 100 other scenarios to consider as well. But the point is that every character has choices to make about more DPR or some other action that may be more useful in the scope of the campaign but causes less overall DPR. But the kinds of situations we are talking about are the exceptions and not the norm. In general maximizing DPR in a day is a solid strategy to start the day off with. Circumstances can always change but it's a pretty good go to strategy.

One other thing I happened to think of. How often does a fighter that doesn't use precision still have maneuvers by a short rest that we would be counting as wasted?

 

[Fanaelialae]

Oh I agree. DPR isn't everything. Sometimes it's better to do something now even if later you could edge out more DPR. You have that option and flexibility if needed. Either with using precision on something outside the desired range for the chance it helps now or using a damage maneuver to try and kill a monster now that you think is weak on hp. I'm sure there's 100 other scenarios to consider as well. But the point is that every character has choices to make about more DPR or some other action that may be more useful in the scope of the campaign but causes less overall DPR. But the kinds of situations we are talking about are the exceptions and not the norm. In general maximizing DPR in a day is a solid strategy to start the day off with. Circumstances can always change but it's a pretty good go to strategy.

Certainly. I was simply saying that when deciding whether this combo is strong but acceptable, or entirely OP, such things ought to be considered by the individual.

One other thing I happened to think of. How often does a fighter that doesn't use precision still have maneuvers by a short rest that we would be counting as wasted?

It could happen, but given that a non-PA user can likely just dump these for damage on a hit, I don't think it's altogether likely (unless you're keeping one in your back pocket intentionally, just in case). Unlike PA, most of them trigger on a hit and add a superiority die of damage. Therefore, even if you aren't overly interested in the rider you can still just burn them for the extra damage (assuming you can hit). In the case of PA, you're waiting for a specific circumstance (miss within X) which might not occur in a given combat.

 

[CapnZapp]

It seems to require both extreme min-maxing, and DM buy-in. So, eh, no biggie.

What you dismiss as "extreme min-maxing" is business as normal for some. That's incredibly offensive.

And no, it doesn't require any DM buy-in apart from using feats. If you dismiss that too I will consider you a troll and a WotC tool.

Don't be that.

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[CapnZapp]

SS/GWM certainly increase DPR by more than the other option available, but whenever I see people discuss them being OP they do so in unrealistic ways usually. You aren't going to only fight enemies with 14 AC, you won't always have advantage and a +2 magic weapon in every fight. In real games you don't know the AC of what you are fighting so things like Precision don't always work. I never see people factor in the inaccuracy of these attacks, which makes me question whether they want to fairly evaluate how much better they are or whether they prefer to just shout "OP" and "Wrong".

Then you haven't watched hard enough.

If you prefer to think the game can't be broken, nothing we say can persuade you. Please then say so openly so we can stop wasting time on you.

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[CapnZapp]

For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that the fighter makes 20 attacks over these encounters (they're a little easier than not) which allows us to assume that all numbers 1 thru 20 will be rolled.

Let's also say the AC is 16, and that the players are told this (not all DMs do, in which case it could take the players a round or two to suss out the exact AC even if they are paying attention to the rolls).


The CE + SS + precision makes 3 attacks with hand crossbows each round (not sure how he's reloading them, but I'll ignore that here). As you stated in your earlier post, he has +4 from proficiency, + 2 from archery, + 5 from Dexterity, and -5 from SS, for a total of +6 (55% chance to hit, before precision is factored in). He's 10th level, which gives him a d10 superiority die, and he will use this on precision if he misses by 5 or less (I know you said 4 or less, but that would leave one superiority die unused which would unfairly skew the math against your position).

He doesn't bother with precision for rolls 20 thru 10, because they hit without it. These attacks deal 1d6+15 damage (2d6+15 for the crit), for 207 total damage [(18.5 x 10) + 22].
On the roll of 9, he uses precision and hits automatically for an additional 18.5 damage.
On the 8, he uses precision but has a 10% chance of missing, resulting in 16.65 dmg.
On the 7, 20% miss chance, resulting in 14.8 dmg.
On the 6, 30% miss chance, resulting in 12.95 dmg.
On the 5, 40% miss chance, resulting in 11.1 dmg.
The 4 thru 1 miss completely.

This results in an average of 14.05 per attack.


Against an AC of 20:

He doesn't bother with precision for rolls 20 thru 14, because they hit without it. These attacks deal 1d6+15 damage (2d6+15 for the crit), for 133 total damage [(18.5 x 6) + 22].
On the roll of 13, he uses precision and hits automatically for an additional 18.5 damage.
On the 12, he uses precision but has a 10% chance of missing, resulting in 16.65 dmg.
On the 11, 20% miss chance, resulting in 14.8 dmg.
On the 10, 30% miss chance, resulting in 12.95 dmg.
On the 9, 40% miss chance, resulting in 11.1 dmg.
The 8 thru 1 miss.

This results in an average of 10.35 per attack.


Now we have a second battle master fighter, same as above except that he doesn't use SS or precision. In his case, because he doesn't take the SS penalty, he has a +11 to hit (80% chance to hit). Instead of precision he uses something like Distracting Strike, Goading Attack, or Trip Attack. Let's say he saves one of these uses for a crit (I think that's fair).

He hits on a 5 thru 20. These attacks deal 1d6 + 5 (8.5 dmg x 15), plus an additional 4d10 (22 dmg), plus the crit which is 2d6 + 2d10 + 5 (23 dmg), for a total of 172.5 dmg.
The 1 thru 4 miss.

This results in an average of 8.625 damage per attack.


Against an AC of 20:

He hits on a 9 thru 20. These attacks deal 1d6 + 5 (8.5 dmg x 11), plus an additional 4d10 (22 dmg), plus the crit which is 2d6 + 2d10 + 5 (23 dmg), for a total of 138.5 dmg.
The 1 thru 8 miss.

This results in an average of 6.925 damage per attack.


So against an AC 16, the CE + SS + Precision fighter deals an average of 5.422 more damage per attack.

Against an AC of 20, he deals an average of 3.425 more damage per attack.


Whether or not that's OP I leave up to the individual.


However, there are a few other factors that we ought to consider.

1) This is a white room scenario. Assuming that the DM doesn't tell the players what a monster's AC is, getting within 4 is much harder (particularly for the first round or two). You may even expend precision on an attack that would otherwise have hit. I would assume that in a real world scenario, barring the DM just telling the players what the monster's AC is out of the gate, the disparity would be somewhat less.

2) This doesn't take into account the bonus group DPS that maneuvers like Trip Attack grant (via advantage). Tripping an enemy so that the rogue can sneak attack and not miss is certainly worth a few extra points of DPR. Since the second battle master didn't take Precision Attack, he has one more option than the other battle master (which adds to his utility in combat).

3) The second battle master didn't need to take SS, since he wasn't using it. Maybe he took Toughness for an extra 20 hp. He might have taken Alert so that he regularly wins initiative and doesn't lose his turn due to surprise. Perhaps he took Healer or Lucky or Ritual Caster. Regardless, I think we can all agree that the feat is worth something, even if we might differ as to precisely how much.

4) This is only an examination of a 20 round combat. However, Frogreaver posited 24 to 36 rounds. 36 is close to 40 so let's assume another 20 attacks without any maneuver dice.

Against AC 16, the first fighter deals 1d6+15 damage (2d6+15 for the crit); 207 total damage [(18.5 x 10) + 22], for an average of 10.35 damage per attack.
Against AC 20, the first fighter deals deal 1d6+15 damage (2d6+15 for the crit); 133 total damage [(18.5 x 6) + 22], for an average of 6.65 damage per attack.

Against AC 16, the second fighter deals 1d6 + 5 (2d6+5 for the crit); 139.5 total damage [(8.5 x 15) + 12], for an average of 6.975 damage per attack.
Against AC 20, the second fighter deals 1d6 + 5 (2d6+5 for the crit); 105.5 total damage [(8.5 x 11) + 12], for an average of 5.275 damage per attack.

For the latter 20 attacks, the first fighter deals an average of 3.375 more per attack against AC 16.
Against AC 20, he deals an average of 1.375 more per attack.

If we average the damage increase over 40 rounds:
The first fighter deals an average of 4.3985 more damage per attack against AC 16.
He deals an average of 2.4 more damage per attack against AC 20.


Now, it can't be denied that GWM and SS should have SOME benefit. They are feats after all. Is the above too much? Do the additional factors listed above sufficiently mitigate it? As I said before, I think that's up to the individual. In some games it may be, in others it might not.

I stopped reading as soon as I realized you wasted this huge post on a scenario not involving advantage.

Please leave it to those who knows how to properly min-max.

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