D&D General So what is high level play like?

[Vael]

... And how often have you played at higher levels?

Because TBH, while I have played DnD since 3.5, it was only 4e that got to upper levels, as I had a campaign get to mid-Paragon Tier, and we played a few Epic One-shots. And even there, since I did a lot of Organized play in 4e ... I'd say the vast majority of my time playing DnD 4e was below 5th level.

I never got to play past level 6 in 3.5, and I've gotten to 9th or 10th level in 5e twice (Curse of Strahd and Descent into Avernus) before those campaigns wrapped up.

And I wouldn't call myself an irregular player, I've had a stable RPG group that's managed to play mostly weekly for over 5 years now. But between changing campaigns/DMs/Systems ... high level play is something I've not done.

So, first ... is this a common experience? Do you play primarily at low or high levels? How is higher level play different?

 

[pukunui]

Easy to play, hard to DM.

I've made it to level 20 as a player a few times now. And yeah, it's kinda gonzo.

The PCs in my Mad Mage game just hit level 15. That's the highest I've DMed for so far in 5e. (Previous record was level 14 at the end of Tyranny of Dragons. Otherwise my campaigns usually end around levels 10-12 if not lower.) One of my players is keen to make it to level 20 at least once, and Mad Mage is the easiest adventure in which to do it. I don't know that I'll DM much beyond levels 10-12 again after this. It gets really hard to challenge the PCs because they have so many "I win" buttons and "get out of jail free" cards.

 

[J-H]

3.5 takes a lot of work to build high level characters or monsters, and the math breaks down.

5e is fun. I have DM'd a campaign (Against the Idol of the Sun, campaign log on enworld and giantitp) that went to 20+2 epic boons, and enjoyed it. The players are a bit harder to make feel at risk, but it's still very possible. They can also take on a lot bigger challenges, and get to do cool things more. The run-up to the final battle involved coordinating the logistics of simultaneously delivering:
-the party
-a kraken
-a teleportation ring that let a group of giants cast Teleport Circle to charge through it, entirely unofficially with no help from their government due to threats made by the BBEG's forces
-several groups of assassins/wizards/etc. on the outskirts of the city.

The game-winning moment was the Warlock using the Anyspell Tome to cast Wish, and using that Wish to cast Antipathy (which has no save) in an instant on the BBEG who was highly visible to the entire city, shattering the coordination of his entire (huge) army.

 

[TwoSix]

My groups have done a lot of play in Tier 3 (11-16), but we’ve always wrapped up before tier 4 (17+).

I’ve found Tier 3 to be a sweet spot of 5e; character concepts are fleshed out and everyone has gotten the feats they need to realize their concepts. High level slots and rare and impactful, and some of the high level martial concepts have enough power to really differentiate themselves.

 

[Oofta]

I've played in and run campaigns to max level, they are a lot of fun. Yes, they get a bit gonzo and as a DM it can be interesting to challenge the group but I've found finding the right balance a bit tricky at all levels. So far 5E is the best experience I've had at high level, it's still a really fun experience. I'd discuss issues I had with previous editions but that tends to lead to edition wars.

I do run my 5E games a bit different than some. I use the alternate rest rules so a short rest is overnight and a long rest is several days to a week, but that's mostly for pacing and because I think it should take a bit longer than overnight to recover. Plane shift is a ritual but requires that you find a pathway first and then it just opens a gate and a couple others.

I would say the only drawback I find to high level play in 5E is the lack of high level opponents, especially humanoids. Look up high level medium sized monsters and most of them are just a lich with a name. It's fun to have that gargantuan ancient dracolich show up (I used a lawn ornament for the mini), but otherwise I end up creating custom bad guys or increasing the level of an existing monsters. On the other hand, the group had a tough time with a handful of frost worms (slightly upgraded version of purple worms), it will be interesting to see how they deal with the kraken and his buddies.

So I have fun with it whether playing or DMing. I don't have a problem challenging PCs as a DM, I enjoy the challenge. High level casters have really powerful spells, but they still only have a handful. PCs have a lot of HP but when you have monsters that does an AOE that can do close to a hundred points of damage that has a save DC in the 20s, that becomes less of an issue.

 

[Delazar]

I've DMed multiple campaigns to level 20, and played in at least 4 (as a barbarian/fighter, paladin, rune knight, cleric) that I can remember.

In all honesty, I enjoyed high-level play. Maybe I was blessed with players/DMs that knew what they were doing, and ok sometimes one round of combat lasted 45 minutes to one hour. But the epic scope of our battles will forever stay with me.

Still remember when my triton barbarian jumped off his giant crab to smite Ogremoch, or when he fought the god of death in the Shadowfell. Or when my Rune Knight fought a cybernetic dragon while flying around in the eye of a lightning storm.

I mean, it gets pretty gonzo and over the top at high-levels, but if you embrace it, it can be memorable!

 

[wedgeski]

My group is at 16th-level right now. This is the closing stage of a multi-year campaign with PC character arcs all coming to fruition, so mechanical challenges are secondary to character/narrative reckonings. That's where most of my attention goes.

Mechanically, there's good and bad. Good, because fast travel, instant problem solving, scrying, divination...they all make my job easy (no mystery is so ridiculous it can't be solved); bad, because a party with even half its resources melts most level-appropriate encounters.

For me, it's all in the encounter design. Multi-stage combats, interesting victory conditions, weird battlefield effects, ticking clocks. You can build a great encounter that doesn't scratch the surface of the party's hit points as long as they have something to worry about.

 

[the Jester]

I looooove high and epic level play, both as a player and a DM, but ONLY if the group earned its levels. Starting at high levels leaves me very unsatisfied; so much of good high level play involves calling on relationships from previous adventures, using connections gained over time, and having weird, off-the-books resources. You just don't get that when you make 16th (or whatever) level characters.

High level play is amazing. The stakes can be much higher, the solutions can be less obvious (or, more likely, as a DM I will throw epic problems at the pcs with no solution in mind), the setting can be anything you can think of. Sure, mid- to high-level pcs can handle hostile environments and big stakes, but there's a difference between "a slaad lord and a handful of lackeys perptrating some scheme" and "slaad tadpoles are falling from the sky, all around the world, and infecting and transforming creatures in only moments". Only one of these has an epic threat and epic stakes and requires epic solutions. (And the slaad rain is an example of an epic threat that I used in my campaign.)

High level play tends to be more player-driven. It's often more "what are you going to do?" and less "here's an adventure for you". It can switch locales and even planes at a moment's notice, so the DM has to be able to improvise to keep up. The players' tools still include "I cast a spell" and "I hit it with my sword", but they now might include "I marshal an army" and "I sell all my precious gems cheap to crash the market" and "I teleport to a small town and destroy it, then threaten to keep doing that at random unless the king backs down".

One common trope that I think is terrible is the notion that every threat should be world-shaking. Sure, once in a while- but really, only ONCE in a while. Just the once. Other epic threats can be more abstract or down to earth, with different (but still massive) stakes, such as an entity trying to extinguish hope itself, corruption taking over a religious or political organization, politics (worldly or planar), first contact with strange entities of prodigious power and inscrutable motivation, natural disasters (imagine your pcs trying to handle a Mt Vesuvius type eruption, or a flood that sweeps across an entire continent, or a fast-spreading plague), creating a prophecy for a future chosen one and setting up the world to produce them at the right time, etc.

It's a real shame so many of you guys haven't experienced good high level play, but I understand how hard it is to achieve. Still, if you ever get the chance, a persistent campaign with long term pcs and troupe-style play (where all the players switch pcs out from time to time) is a great way to do it, with the prime pcs targeted at becoming epic with the others around for when you get the urge for lower level play, is a good way to do it. But I get that that kind of game is rare these days.

 

[Stalker0]

I've done 2 campaigns to the high levels (one all the way to 20th), and a few one shot type adventures at high levels.

I think running 5e combats at high levels is much simpler than in 3e, a little harder than 4e. The combats still go relatively quick all things considered. In terms of design, the greatest freedom of high levels is I honestly stop caring about how PCs are going to get through my stuff. I literally just throw the kitchen sink, feeling confident they will figure it some way to overcome. CR is completely irrelevant at this point, again I can use whatever monster or encounter I want. If the fight is actually too hard the PCs can always run....and if not there is always resurrection type options.

I find the number one key to a good high level adventure is some form of ticking clock. You give 20th level characters time and the sky's the limit, literally nothing is too hard for them. But you make it where they have to accomplish the goal in a day.....or heck an hour....and now things get spicy. For example one adventure I ran was an assault on Asmodeus' palace. The players had planned for many many sessions for this, disabling certain security, enlisting a host of angels to hold off the infinite devils for a while, placing a teleport blocker on the complex so Big A couldn't just escape, having a cabal of djinn use their wish powers to block Big As higher level juice for a while, making a deal with Destiny itself so that Big A couldn't just outprepare all of their plans....etc.

All of that amounted to the players dropping in outside of the palace and having roughly 2 hours to take him out before their preparations failed out, enough for 1 short rest.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I have run 2e from 4th-20th level(ish) and 3e from 1st-24th plus several 3e one-shots from 18-30th level. I was in a 2e/Primal Order campaign at 30th level and am playing in a 5e game currently at 14th. (I skipped 4e aside from some one shots due to life being not campaign friendly)

The trick, imo, to high level play is to lean into the power and expect it to be used. It helps as a DM to do one shots about 5 levels higher than your comfort level/current campaign so you can see people going nova with characters they aren't attached to. The gonzo play will help reset your idea of "normal".

 

[darjr]

I e run a lot of high level play. Mostly in AL where PCs can be very powerful. I kinda love it. As a DM I can take my foot off any breaks and put a brick on the gas.

The most dangerous thing to PCs is still other PCs. For ex one game I ran had eight level 20 characters, four of them had been level twenty for years in AL, one had Black Razor grandfathered in. A tiny collection of intellect devourers managed to go ignored and one took over the Barbarian, over and over.

One game the players faced a literal mountain that started attacking them six miles out. They had nothing to fight back except meteor swarm, one by the wizard and another by his simulacrum, who didn’t survive long. Lots of wild long range teleporting and flight and one PC dead dead and they still managed to lose the city. But saved the Queen.