D&D General So what is high level play like?

[Vael]

... And how often have you played at higher levels?

Because TBH, while I have played DnD since 3.5, it was only 4e that got to upper levels, as I had a campaign get to mid-Paragon Tier, and we played a few Epic One-shots. And even there, since I did a lot of Organized play in 4e ... I'd say the vast majority of my time playing DnD 4e was below 5th level.

I never got to play past level 6 in 3.5, and I've gotten to 9th or 10th level in 5e twice (Curse of Strahd and Descent into Avernus) before those campaigns wrapped up.

And I wouldn't call myself an irregular player, I've had a stable RPG group that's managed to play mostly weekly for over 5 years now. But between changing campaigns/DMs/Systems ... high level play is something I've not done.

So, first ... is this a common experience? Do you play primarily at low or high levels? How is higher level play different?

 

[Teemu]

One thing 4e can do really well in the epic levels is amazing power fantasy that works pretty smoothly, without getting too bogged down by complex or time consuming rules. I actually had a 4e group of level 21 PCs fight an actual army of people and dragons, and it all worked perfectly without hiccups or overly complex mechanics. It was pretty amazing to be honest, and so far 4e has been the only version of the game that has allowed something like that.

It's been a while, but if I remember correctly, it was a wave encounter where regular soldiers were represented as one-hit kill swarm minions. If you're wondering why, 4e technically has an objective power level in its rules for creatures, but it's not level, it's the XP. You can translate the same creature from a standard to a minion by looking at how much XP a creature of a particular level is worth. Regular mortal people tend to be standard creatures of low to mid heroic tier (around levels 1-5), so a single soldier can be translated as a high-heroic or low-paragon minion creature (levels 9-13 or so) -- but minion is the least powerful version of creature allowed in the rules, and in the epic levels a single regular mortal like that is not a threat at all (maybe an environmental hazard!).

But, with a bit of rules familiarity, you can combine regular mortal soldier minions into a swarm and make it a standard creature, but even that is not enough to threaten epic tier heroes because it's a paragon tier obstacle. Thus, I made minion creatures but with the swarm subtype: archer formations, spear formations, mage formations. Gargantuan creatures consisting of dozens of people, but because we're facing epic PCs, even a single successful attack lays waste to them, dissolving the formation! They had extra defenses against single target attacks to account for the custom minion swarm rules -- normally swarms take half damage from such attacks, but minions die in one hit.

I also had wings of young dragons attacking from the skies. Only in 4e. They were minions, as heroic-tier solos translate into level 21-23 minions, give or take a level. Accompanied by adult dragons (paragon solos translated as epic elite creatures), and of course a solo ancient dragon leading the army (the last wave of the fight). Again, only 4e D&D can pull off a fight like this in high level play. Sure, you could do it in 3.5 at very, very high levels, but it would be nearly impossible to gauge the difficulty, and it would take forever to resolve it. It was honestly pretty smooth going as a 4e combat encounter.

 

[S'mon]

One thing 4e can do really well in the epic levels is amazing power fantasy that works pretty smoothly, without getting too bogged down by complex or time consuming rules. I actually had a 4e group of level 21 PCs fight an actual army of people and dragons, and it all worked perfectly without hiccups or overly complex mechanics. It was pretty amazing to be honest, and so far 4e has been the only version of the game that has allowed something like that.

It's been a while, but if I remember correctly, it was a wave encounter where regular soldiers were represented as one-hit kill swarm minions. If you're wondering why, 4e technically has an objective power level in its rules for creatures, but it's not level, it's the XP. You can translate the same creature from a standard to a minion by looking at how much XP a creature of a particular level is worth. Regular mortal people tend to be standard creatures of low to mid heroic tier (around levels 1-5), so a single soldier can be translated as a high-heroic or low-paragon minion creature (levels 9-13 or so) -- but minion is the least powerful version of creature allowed in the rules, and in the epic levels a single regular mortal like that is not a threat at all (maybe an environmental hazard!).

But, with a bit of rules familiarity, you can combine regular mortal soldier minions into a swarm and make it a standard creature, but even that is not enough to threaten epic tier heroes because it's a paragon tier obstacle. Thus, I made minion creatures but with the swarm subtype: archer formations, spear formations, mage formations. Gargantuan creatures consisting of dozens of people, but because we're facing epic PCs, even a single successful attack lays waste to them, dissolving the formation! They had extra defenses against single target attacks to account for the custom minion swarm rules -- normally swarms take half damage from such attacks, but minions die in one hit.

I also had wings of young dragons attacking from the skies. Only in 4e. They were minions, as heroic-tier solos translate into level 21-23 minions, give or take a level. Accompanied by adult dragons (paragon solos translated as epic elite creatures), and of course a solo ancient dragon leading the army (the last wave of the fight). Again, only 4e D&D can pull off a fight like this in high level play. Sure, you could do it in 3.5 at very, very high levels, but it would be nearly impossible to gauge the difficulty, and it would take forever to resolve it. It was honestly pretty smooth going as a 4e combat encounter.

Nice. I ran a 4e campaign from 1st to 29th, I did find it didn't work so well from 24th level up; it slowed down a lot, and adventures could drag on for months. It was still playable though.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I've played at high level (once to 20, twice to 15), and 5e is ridiculously gonzo after about level 14. It's not much fun to DM, and these days I wouldn't play it past that level.

 

[cbwjm]

Apparently, getting to mid levels is the standard end of a campaign. It's where my players have ended up before our story arc completed, might be where the game I'm playing in ends up though it is a fairly open world, will see how far it goes.

Thinking back, I'm not sure I've ever hit high levels, always somewhere around mid-level. Maybe I should run some one shots for 14th level +

 

[Zardnaar]

Depends on edition but mostly crap.

5 starts going downhill around level 7 or 8. We've got to level 14 and called it.

In other editions we've done level 19, 20, 23ish and 30.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Have played too few games to have a great knowledge, but from what little I've seen, high-level play can actually be a ton of fun because you actually have things to DO, and choices to make, especially if you're a caster of some kind. You have tools and tricks to deal with a variety of situations.

Back in 3e/PF, high-level or even epic-level play is a TON of fun to play (if you're okay with all the bookkeeping), but it is an absolute gorram NIGHTMARE to DM.

In 4e, it wasn't really any easier or harder to DM than (say) early Paragon, to the best of my knowledge, unless you had really wide variance in player skill within your group. (E.g., if one player EXCLUSIVELY chooses weak-but-cool choices across 20+ levels, and another chooses bleeding-edge optimal choices every time always, you can get enough of a gap that it starts to become noticeable...but it will never, EVER be as bad as "Monk 20" vs "Wizard 20" from 3.5e/PF.)

I genuinely find most "low-level" play incredibly boring in 3e/PF and 5e, so it's always nice to see a group start higher up and get some real mechanics to sink my teeth into.

 

[dave2008]

I've only played high level in 4e an 5e and had good experience with both.

4e: my regular group only got to lvl 11, but we did several adventures at epic levels (21-30). They were definitely more difficult to DM as the players have so many tools are their disposal and the standard monsters were a bit weak. However, with a little experience we had a blast in our last lvl 30 adventure that lasted 12 hours over 2 days and culminated in the defeat of Tiamat (after defeating a horde demons, Ashardalon, and Torog and his minions)

5e: my current group is lvl 15 and we have had a blast. Probably the most fun we've had with D&D. I don't find that the game breaks down or that it is hard to DM. But we don't play by the book either, so their is that.

We have also done some one shots at lvl 20 and done specific encounters against: Demogorgon, Tiamat, & Vecna.

 

[dave2008]

5 starts going downhill around level 7 or 8. We've got to level 14 and called it.

NME. Our group is lvl 15 and never enjoyed D&D more. We have really enjoyed high level 5e.

Caveat, we do not play RAW and have several hose rules. But I have never played D&D where that wasn't the case!

 

[Mannahnin]

Quite a bit. In AD&D I think we only ever got up to 8th or 9th once, but starting in 3rd ed I've been fortunate to have a few regular groups in which we regularly played multi-year campaigns up to the top levels. I've played in 5 or 6 games of 3rd or 3.5 which got up to the high teens, 5 games of 4E which did (although in our last couple of 4E campaigns with one group, we started at 11th) and had us all with Epic Destinies and fighting gods by the end, and one 5E game which got up to 18th or so.

3rd and 3.5 unfortunately get quite clunky and slow at higher levels, with players able/having to do a lot of planning and stacking buffs, and for the DM building encounters and keeping track of all the enemy abilities gets really onerous once the PCs are in the teens of levels. I get tempted occasionally to revisit 3rd, but I'd want to do Epic6, I think. The Scry & Die aspect of high level 3E seems to cry out for some house ruling.

4E works fine at high levels, but at the cost of toning down all the most insane magic of high level wizards and clerics in other editions. The game does maybe get a bit slower, with more stuff to track, but not nearly to the extent of 3.x. This was the only edition in which we ever got up to god fighting (except in one official 5E campaign, but we weren't nearly as high level), and the only edition in which I expect to ever kill Vecna while wielding the Sword of Kas in the Hand of Vecna.

5E seems to work pretty well at higher levels. Lots of options, but not all the stacking buffs and contingent effects.