So what's wrong with Palladium?

[Summer-Knight925]

Being a 'newcomer' to things not D&D, I found Rifts, Heroes Unlimited and even Palladium Fantasy very interesting, so I have to ask why do so many people not like Palladium?

I like the system, I like the flow of "So I dodge" where you can take actions during someone else's turn like that, I see no reason why it is bad. So why do I hear to much bad about it?

I've heard that the Hero system works better for the Rifts world, which I have no yay or nay for since I take one look at the hero creation book and say "nope"

So I may be missing out on the Hero system, but I'm not going to go there, this is about Palladium, something I actually enjoy.

And if I might add the 'universal rules system' that d20 had really does make me happy, I can in fact take a Palladium Fantasy troll and drop it into Rifts without any need for conversion.

So what is it that gets people mad?

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Cans opened. Worms, everywhere.

In short, Palladium has a reputation for (at-best) inconsistent/broken and often incomprehensible rules systems with a kitchen-sink approach to fluff that, incomprehensibly, some people find worthwhile.

They also have a track record of being rude and threatening to fans who dare speak of converting RIFTS or other Palladium IP to other systems.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Being a 'newcomer' to things not D&D, I found Rifts, Heroes Unlimited and even Palladium Fantasy very interesting, so I have to ask why do so many people not like Palladium?

I like the system, I like the flow of "So I dodge" where you can take actions during someone else's turn like that, I see no reason why it is bad. So why do I hear to much bad about it?

I've heard that the Hero system works better for the Rifts world, which I have no yay or nay for since I take one look at the hero creation book and say "nope"

So I may be missing out on the Hero system, but I'm not going to go there, this is about Palladium, something I actually enjoy.

And if I might add the 'universal rules system' that d20 had really does make me happy, I can in fact take a Palladium Fantasy troll and drop it into Rifts without any need for conversion.

So what is it that gets people mad?

Writing a better reply than the one I put up initially, stand by

 

[Kobold Boots]

So what is it that gets people mad?

Political/Business -
1. The powers Siembeda (sp.) have been very protective of their IP.
2. They have botched a few RIFTS cross-over projects legally that would have really helped their product visibility.
3. I get the feeling that their game design strategy is based around reducing the number of editions and print runs. They certainly don't give me the impression of publishing company. I get the impression that given four really decent writers I could run the place off my iPhone with a decent relationship with a bindery and Amazon/UPS distribution.

Game wise-
1. The core rules, last time I looked at them were not fully modular and all versions of them (RIFTS, Heroes Unlimited, Ninjas and Superspies, TMNT, PFRPG, Robotech) had genre specific variations that didn't necessarily take game balance into account across all other iterations.

(e.g. Mecha rules in Robotech are not compatible with the Glitterboy suit rules in RIFTS)

Some of this is understandable as the systems came out at different times and reflect the evolution of the system. Some is ridiculous as you can tell that some of the RIFTS magic rules are built specifically to offset some of the broken-ness of the MDC/SDC armor conversions etc.

This kind of thing is seen in a few places throughout, and it's my opinion that it was done to avoid the cost of new print runs/editions. (See business points).

All this said, I appreciate the Robotech game and played TMNT extensively as a teenager. RIFTS turned me off from their game system.

 

[Summer-Knight925]

Cans opened. Worms, everywhere.

In short, Palladium has a reputation for (at-best) inconsistent/broken and often incomprehensible rules systems with a kitchen-sink approach to fluff that, incomprehensibly, some people find worthwhile.

They also have a track record of being rude and threatening to fans who dare speak of converting RIFTS or other Palladium IP to other systems.

Only problem I see is skills and getting to powerful to quick, but it is a percentile based skill system, I have yet to see one that is good. Granted Deathwatch is amazing, but that is a percent game, not just skills.


What it comes down to IMO is either a power gamer's dream or a role player's creepy dark fantasy they dont let anyone know about, the rifts setting is quite possibly my favorite setting for anything, although Middle Earth has a special place, it did move past star wars.

Nothing will take the sky from me though.

I feel the cluster....word I get in trouble for saying...setting works with the cluster you-get-the-point rules. The rules are easily fixed, while it sounds odd saying "I like this system even though you have to make a few tweaks" I mean I like points of this system.

I like the health system
I like the action system
I like the spell system
I like Mega-Damage
I like the large choice of skills


I dislike the percent skill
I dislike the fact Beyond Super Natural still has not come out

but when I compare it to other games, I still like it, I mean, there is no perfect system (a perfect system for everyone that is) but I still find that any type of Sci-fi/shoot-em-up game always has trouble with certain things (health mostly, and dodging and armor, something Palladium has done IMO a great job of)

So the people behind may suck, but must we forget that we are the nerd community? We pick apart everything, EVERYTHING.
There is no problem with this, especially being a nerd, nerd power all the way.

What I'm trying to say is it seems a lot of people say "this game is broken" when they never stop to read that part about experience points that says you get it based on the challenge. If the party is really over powered, would you not say it is less of a challenge? Is the glitter-boy more powerful than the rogue scientist?

In combat, yes.
In everything else, nope.
It is a skills heavy game, and sure, with fairly crappy skills it may 'suck' but at the same time, when I play it, I see the high percentage for the character not as a bonus but as a "how much I know in this topic". Sure the mechanic knows how to fix this car, but ignoring that bonus to an extent and going by what the dice say makes it more balanced, again, changing it may be a sign of a bad system to some, but with OD&D were there really many rules to follow? Perhaps Rifts did what (once more IMO) 4e did wrong (it actually started in 3e but got worse in 4e), rules. I love the basic fantasy role play stuff, I like the dungeon crawl classics lack of most-things-3e-had, I like no skills OR so many skills it describes who they were, I guess I like the skill systems that are extreme in that sense, but again, I think tweaking the rules because of the situation just means you as GM are doing a better job than a computer can.

So I'm sorry I opened a can of worms, but on the other hand, we could go fishing and call talk this through.

 

[the Jester]

Complete lack of game balance.

Totally clunky mechanics.

Horrible inconsistencies in the way pcs play and their relative power levels.

Never a revision, update or cleanup of even the crappiest product.

Randomized releases that come out years after they are first advertised and aren't usually worth the wait.

Everything reads like it was written by a 12-year-old with no sense of restraint.

The art, MY GOD, THE ART.

Kevin S. is (allegedly) a complete jerk who (allegedly) rips off creators that make the mistake of working for him left and right. I don't know this first hand, but a friend of a friend wrote some stuff for him and has nothing but horror stories to show for it.

 

[Kobold Boots]

I dislike the fact Beyond Super Natural still has not come out

I disagree with you on this point. I know I have a copy of Beyond the Supernatural on my bookshelf. Look for it on ebay.

Next, don't get me wrong, when the system first came out, it was awesome in comparison to what was out there to my teenage eyes and it will always hold a place on my shelves. But I think if I needed to get behind it fully, I'd have to rewrite it from the ground up simply because all the things you like about the system, I like about the system.

Problem is once you get past the basic design and look at implementation it fails to scale well.

 

[SkidAce]

I have a copy of Beyond the Supernatural as well.

Overall I have fun with Rifts, and Palladium games in general, but t does take a firm hand on the reins to keep the game from disintegrating.

(I do wish I could try Rifts setting with Hero rules, if only people around here would agree.)

 

[Summer-Knight925]

Complete lack of game balance.

Totally clunky mechanics.

Horrible inconsistencies in the way pcs play and their relative power levels.

Never a revision, update or cleanup of even the crappiest product.

Randomized releases that come out years after they are first advertised and aren't usually worth the wait.

Everything reads like it was written by a 12-year-old with no sense of restraint.

The art, MY GOD, THE ART.

Kevin S. is (allegedly) a complete jerk who (allegedly) rips off creators that make the mistake of working for him left and right. I don't know this first hand, but a friend of a friend wrote some stuff for him and has nothing but horror stories to show for it.

I disagree with you on this point. I know I have a copy of Beyond the Supernatural on my bookshelf. Look for it on ebay.

Next, don't get me wrong, when the system first came out, it was awesome in comparison to what was out there to my teenage eyes and it will always hold a place on my shelves. But I think if I needed to get behind it fully, I'd have to rewrite it from the ground up simply because all the things you like about the system, I like about the system.

Problem is once you get past the basic design and look at implementation it fails to scale well.

When Kevin dies of old age (or what have you, I don't know who you are or what you're capable of) I hope to see Palladium move into hands who fix it.

Now if I won the lottery and he died in the same week, I would more or less fix the system.

And no, I don't want him to die, I'm simply saying that 1. he is stubborn (i tried to write for him aswell, didn't work out) and 2. he is stubborn (won't reproduce the rules and rewrite the broken parts out of sheer pride.


However, the Rifts setting is by far my favorite sci-fi rpg setting, beats star wars, some star trek and to be honest the firefly rpg never...really...went...anywhere

but I digress, this is not a perfect system, but not to cause an edition war (which this has a 94% chance of doing) but is WotC being the same way? Just on a larger scale with a more known game?
Do not all game companies do this?

Money my friends, money corrupts us all. Money and Barovia, but let's not go there, at least not now.

 

[Kobold Boots]

When Kevin dies of old age (or what have you, I don't know who you are or what you're capable of) I hope to see Palladium move into hands who fix it.

Fair enough. I'm capable of quite a bit. Especially if I take time off from the day job and do things I actually like doing. Writing is one of them.

Now if I won the lottery and he died in the same week, I would more or less fix the system.

Fair enough, here's the thing. He doesn't own license over percentile dice or character classes, or experience progressions, so long as you don't steal his trademarks good luck having any problem with him. I highly doubt that any system that ends up being written would be 75% similar considering the stuff that could be added or removed to fix it.

And no, I don't want him to die, I'm simply saying that 1. he is stubborn (i tried to write for him aswell, didn't work out) and 2. he is stubborn (won't reproduce the rules and rewrite the broken parts out of sheer pride.

To be frank, I appreciate Kevin's efforts regardless of pride or whatever his reasons are, but make no bones about it.. if he's not releasing cleaned up and revised rules (because there are revised editions) it's because of the cost of print runs and the time needed to revise old stuff as opposed to developing new stuff and the additional time to revise everything to meet the new rules.

If it would make more money to revise everything, he'd do it, stubborn or not.