D&D 5E Solving the 5MWD

[Shiroiken]

I think the 5mwd is more a problem of style of play rather than mechanic.
if players focus on their character being hero on mission or adventuring, they will
do their best with their ressource, and eventually look for a long rest.
if players focus on their character sheet, spells, abilities, they will play accordingly to that.
DnD assume that players will willingly try to impersonate a hero and play accordingly to that.
expecting that the rules force players to do that is asking too much.

Absolutely this. If the players accept that they're playing a game, rather than playing their characters, then it changes everything. My group only ever suffers from the 5MWD issue during travel, and the solution to that has been to have most wilderness combat either be a side-trek adventure or a super-deadly fight where they NEED to go nova. During most adventures, they ration their resources (although they do tend to nova against the perceived BBEG) because they don't know how long they need to go.

Case in point with my current group (I'm a player in this session). Last week we were investigating some cultists. We found their hidden lair, and were exploring it, killing off all the cultists we came across. However, we had one bad encounter that left us quite injured and with only 1 wizard spell (cleric and bard were empty), 2 bardic inspirations, and about half our HP remaining. We continued exploring, hoping there wasn't anyone left, but our scout ran across a lone cultist. We discussed if we should move to attack, or if we should withdraw entirely. We decided that attacking was the better choice, since if we withdrew, she would know what we'd done, and would likely either flee to another location or summon reinforcements when we returned. Needless to say, she was the cult's leader, and nearly killed all of us (2 of 5 PCs remained standing, both with 1 HP received from natural 20s on death saves).

 

[Ashrym]

I deny 5MWD's and I'm mildly offended at the statements that I would deny them just because I like that type of play. I deny them because I don't see them actually happening through decades of play.

Is a different spell list a /mechanical/ distinction? They're both neo-Vancian casters, mechanically.

I think the D&D mythos is more an artifact of the game's mechanics, than the other way round.

They don't both have the same class powers or armor proficiencies, however. Channel divinity, divine intervention, and either bonus damage to cantrips or weapon attacks is quite a bit different from the focus on shapeshifting. The spell lists and mechanics are only a part of either class.

That doesn't mean they cannot be changed, of course. As is they are quite a bit different in how they play.

There's nothing wrong with this approach, but I basically do that already. It's just codifying what I do narratively; short and long rests only come after n number of encounters. I just do it by adjusting of the story pace with the same result.

Pretty much this.

@FrogReaver The only house rule you need is to tell the players they don't take rests. They are given rests by the DM where they fit into the narrative. That one simple change fixes any 5MWD there is, and players who blow their resources will conserve if they know ahead of time.

 

[Krachek]

playing in a DnD game can be view as an invitation to a dinner with friends.
there is some sort of civility, friendship and common sense with what your friends offer you as guest.
if you denied all plates, grossly eat all dessert, don’t speak to anybody, you don’t play the game of of friendly dinner.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I deny 5MWD's and I'm mildly offended at the statements that I would deny them just because I like that type of play.

I'm relieved that you're only mildly offended. I tried to couch it as delicately as possible, with reasonable examples of playstyles for which the 5MWD is arguable functional or desirable.

I deny them because I don't see them actually happening through decades of play.

Do you deny that those of us who seem them happening frequently, over decades of play? No?
Then you're not denying the 5MWD. You are relating your experience, though, which is interesting, as you may, inadvertently have hit upon a solution of your own, long since (if it were advertent, I suspect you'd've put it differently).

The spell lists and mechanics are only a part of either class.

I was replying to an assertion that spell lists are a mechanical differece. Not necessarily disagreeing, just wanting to understand the logic. Spells are all presented in the same format, and use many of the same mechanics, though some also are sub-systems in their own right.

Pretty much this.

"Basically do it already" just informally.

The only house rule you need is to tell the players they don't take rests. They are given rests by the DM where they fit into the narrative.

That is, indeed, a very similar solution. (One more in keeping with the broader DM Empowerment we find in 5e, too.) I'd assume that "fit into the narrative" doesn't mean either that, any time they rest 8 hours 'in the narrative' they get their long rest (because that'd be the players deciding to take rests), but rather that the narrative shapes the availability of rests.

Personally, I do something similar, I adjust the availability and time/requirements of rests based on the situation. Long sea voyages came up a lot in my last campaign, so I usually use that example. Short rests are available, but long rests require putting in to a friendly port or nice island with fresh water &c. Mind you, I /still/ have the occasional 5MWD.

 

[gyor]

What is 5MWD, it's sounds like a new lubricant for car parts.

 

[Ashrym]

@Tony Vargas I cannot deny anyone else's experience (it was the existence in my games I was denying); only express my own. That's why I also gave my simple solution.

I'm going to point out that the long rests actually require 24 hours because it's one 8 hour long rest per 24 hour period. We still have 16 hours to loot dungeons. Or stuff.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm having trouble trying to get into the mindset of a wizard living in this world, who knows this to be true. Setting aside the issue of whatever language they use to describe the progression by which a wizard is capable of casting stronger spells, the character has no way of knowing how quickly they'll progress, and they certainly can't afford to waste a spell slot now if they might need it six months down the line. Even if I have a hundred spell slots, there's no telling how many years I'll need to make those last.

It's the same issue I had with the Wand of Cure Light Wounds, in Pathfinder. Even if it works out in practice, that the expected treasure from any high-level encounter will more than off-set the hundreds of GP worth of magic wands, I don't want my character to need to make that assumption.

So let me start with a fictional explanation of what I see happening in this system. That may make it more palatable for you.

In this system magical power would be a resivor the gets used up. Except level up is like busting through the Dam that's holding the rest of the water back and then the resivor refills. Each level up is another Dam that get's busted through.

IMO. This allows the mechanic to make fictional sense.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I cannot deny anyone else's experience (it was the existence in my games I was denying); only express my own. That's why I also gave my simple solution.

If you've implemented a solution, you're hardly denying the problem.

I'm going to point out that the long rests actually require 24 hours because it's one 8 hour long rest per 24 hour period. We still have 16 hours to loot dungeons.

Y'might be taking the 5M a little literally, there. "Single Encounter Day" would be the same meaning, just without the decades of use behind the SED acronym that 5MWD has.
(Though, again, I swear, back in the day, we said 15 minutes! ...in retrospect, IDK why, since play back then progressed in 10-minute turns, it'd either be a 10 min or 20 min work day.)

In this system magical power would be a resivor the gets used up. Except level up is like busting through the Dam that's holding the rest of the water back and then the resivor refills. Each level up is another Dam that get's busted through.
IMO. This allows the mechanic to make fictional sense.

I thought it might be something like that, though, really, that's just a metaphorical restatement of the mechanic. (Not that such hasn't been quite enough for many a mechanic over the years - especially the older the mechanic, the thinner the veneer required.)

Whether there's any sense of 'leveling' in the fiction is another one of those things that isn't abundantly clear nor translates well into fiction. For instance, a Cormyrian fighter levelling to 3 and going PDK, has definitely had the occasion marked in the fiction. Most other classes/levels, not so much. We could go on about new spell levels opening up, but for most casters, it's really a new spell - and are spell levels, themselves, meaningfully articulated in the imagined world, or are they maybe roughly grouped into 'greater' and 'lesser' as in the Dying Earth? If there's no sense of leveling, there's no sense of re-charging when you level, and spellcasting is just this power you can't depend upon. Like luck.

Ironically with a Warlock (who, if I follow, will be less affected by the variant), I could see it as each level doubling-down on the Pact. Power restored and greater power bestowed, greater price being paid.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So let me start with a fictional explanation of what I see happening in this system. That may make it more palatable for you.

In this system magical power would be a resivor the gets used up. Except level up is like busting through the Dam that's holding the rest of the water back and then the resivor refills. Each level up is another Dam that get's busted through.

IMO. This allows the mechanic to make fictional sense.

Can you see how close you are to a breakthrough? Is it possible to reject experience, in order to hold off the breakthrough?

I've played plenty of video games that implemented a full recovery on level up, and in many of them, you need to be pretty strategic about when you use them. If you accidentally gain a level when you don't expect it, then it can ruin your whole session.

Now I'm imagining that you only get nineteen of those throughout your entire lifetime - in the best case scenario, where you eventually become the most powerful wizard who has ever lived. Most wizards won't get anywhere near that many. A lucky wizard might replenish their mana reserve up to eight times in their life.

I'm not saying that you can't make sense of it if you really want to, but dang, that's a lot of pressure as a spellcaster.

 

[Ashrym]

@Tony Vargas On the contrary, I offered a solution to someone else's stated problem that does not occur in my experience. That acknowledges they have stated a problem. It doesn't change history to have 5MWD's appear in my past games, or add them to my current games.

You might call it, "packing it in and heading home early" if you like. Running the clock is another example of fixing those. There's a difference between a fed-ex question and a fed-ex quest with a deadline. We just can't have everything always running the clock and that's a way of mixing it up. Timed events is something I also commonly use. Quitting the day early doesn't change my timeline of events unless I decide it's warranted.